Board of Appeals — Agenda

PLEASE NOTE: Upon reasonable notice, efforts will be made to accommodate the needs of disabled individuals through sign language interpreters or other auxiliary aids. For additional information or to request these services, contact the Village Clerk at (414) 351-8900. It is possible that members of, and possibly a quorum of members of, other governmental bodies of the municipality may be in attendance at the above-stated meeting to gather information; no action will be taken by any governmental body at the above-stated meeting other than the governmental body specifically referred to above in this notice. NOTICE OF MEETING VILLAGE OF FOX POINT BOARD OF APPEALS MEETING SCHWEMER HALL - MUNICIPAL BLDG. WEDNESDAY 7200 N. SANTA MONICA BLVD. MAY 28, 2025 FOX POINT, WISCONSIN 5:00 P.M. AGENDA 1. Roll Call 2. Approval of Minutes and Determinations – September 25, 2024 Meeting 3. Approval of Minutes and Determinations – January 22, 2025 Meeting 4. Case 2025-02: 7160 N Barnett Lane. The applicant is requesting a special exception to install decorative 3.5ft tall fencing within the street yard setback. The special exception request is made pursuant to 745-7 B.(3)(h)[2] and 745-7 B.(3)(j) of the Fox Point Code. 5. Case 2025-03: 1562 E Goodrich Lane. The applicant is requesting a special exception to install fencing within the street yard setback. The special exception request is made pursuant to 745-7 B.(3)(h)[2] and 745-7 B.(3)(j) of the Fox Point Code. 6. Adjourn Published and Posted: May 19, 2025 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Village of Fox Point, Wisconsin 12 Board of Appeals - September 25, 2024 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 1 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 2 BRANDMEIER: Yeah, now it's recording. 3 VILLAGE MANAGER SCOTT BOTCHER: Oh, 4 right there. It's over there now? 5 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 6 BRANDMEIER: Yeah. 7 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Ready? Meeting 8 is called to order of the Board of Appeals, into 9 roll call please. 10 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 11 Nancy Filsinger? 12 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Here. 13 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 14 Thomas Dunst? 15 BOARD MEMBER THOMAS DUNST: Here. 16 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 17 Mark Grady? 18 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Here. 19 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 20 Scott Ratke? 21 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: Here. 22 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 23 Adam Bazelon? 24 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Here. 25 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Agenda Item Page 2 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 Number 2 is (indiscernible) and determinations. 2 Any comments from the Board? Adam? 3 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: No comment. 4 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: 5 (indiscernible) May 22, 2024 minutes and 6 determinations. 7 BOARD MEMBER THOMAS DUNST: Second. 8 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: (indiscernible) 9 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 10 Nancy Filsinger? 11 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Aye. 12 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 13 Thomas Dunst? 14 BOARD MEMBER THOMAS DUNST: Aye. 15 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 16 Mark Grady? 17 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Aye. 18 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 19 Scott Ratke? 20 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: Aye. 21 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 22 Adam Bazelon? 23 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Aye. 24 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 25 Motion carries. Page 3 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: Madam 2 Chair, I have a few procedural comments before we 3 get going. We have one case on our agenda today 4 and we have a preliminary matter once we get to 5 that. This is an appeal of an administrative 6 decision. It's got some statutes. 7 They empower the Board of Appeals to 8 hear and decide appeals where it is alleged there 9 was an error in any order, requirement, decision 10 or determination made by an administrative 11 official in the enforcement of this section or of 12 any ordinance adopted pursuant thereto. So, 13 that's why we're here. 14 This is different than any appeal I can 15 remember in a few years anyway. Typically, we're 16 hearing requests for variances or special 17 exceptions. That's not what we're here to do 18 today. What we're here to do today is make a 19 determination of whether a determination made by 20 staff was accurate or not and that determination 21 is being challenged. 22 I just want you to be aware of that 23 context and we will consider the limitations of 24 that further as we go. Next, your rules say the 25 following, this is Item 3 of your agenda. Your Page 4 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 rules say, "Every appeal to the Board shall be 2 taken and filed with the Secretary of the Board 3 within 30 days from the date of refusal to issue 4 a permit from the date of the making of any 5 order, ruling, decision or determination on which 6 an appeal is taken." 7 Your rules also say, Section 5, that, 8 "These rules are for the benefit of the Board and 9 are enforceable by the Board. The Board reserves 10 the right to conduct its proceedings differently 11 than as described herein as it deems appropriate 12 in the circumstances. Failure of the Board to 13 follow or enforce the requirements of these rules 14 shall not be actionable." 15 If you look at the materials that have 16 been provided, I think it shows that what is 17 being appealed was determined many months ago by 18 staff. Much longer than the 30-day time limit 19 required by your votes. When staff has made its 20 determinations, I think it is, inform the 21 applicant that they have the right to appeal to 22 the Board of Appeals. 23 So, because of that, I think -- and 24 we'll hear from staff, but I think it's their 25 position that they do not object to that 30-day Page 5 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 time limit being waived and the applicant also is 2 requesting that you waive them a few days. But 3 it is for your determination to decide. 4 So, maybe we should hear from them 5 directly. I don't want to put words in their 6 mouths. Maybe starting with the Village's 7 position on that. 8 VILLAGE MANAGER SCOTT BOTCHER: We are 9 willing to waive the 30-day requirement. 10 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: We don't need 11 to swear them in, for this piece? 12 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: No, not 13 for this. 14 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Okay. And the 15 Applicant? 16 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Yes, I'm waiving 17 the -- I didn't even know it was 30 days. 18 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: So, with 19 that, it's the Board decision whether you waive 20 that. 21 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Where is 22 the 30 days in the statute? I'm just trying to 23 follow along. 24 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: It's not 25 in the statutes. It's in the Board rules. Page 6 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Oh, okay. 2 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: So, if 3 you have the training packet there -- 4 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Yeah, I do. 5 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: -- it's 6 on Page -- 7 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: My packet 8 might be old. It's dated December 5, 2017. 9 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: December -- 10 BOARD MEMBER THOMAS DUNST: Do you have 11 the same packet? 12 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Yeah, we 13 trained on the same day. But I think it was 14 outdated when we trained. 15 BOARD MEMBER THOMAS DUNST: I think it 16 was outdated. 17 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: It's at 18 the bottom of Page 10, Section 3 - Appeals, Time. 19 See that? 20 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: I don't 21 think I have that, but that's okay. If it's just 22 the Board rules -- I was just more curious. I 23 don't have any objection to waiving it. It seems 24 like it was probably done for our convenience, so 25 we didn't have to convene a special meeting on Page 7 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 the spot, so I am in favor of waiving, if we're 2 discussing right now. 3 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Tom? 4 BOARD MEMBER THOMAS DUNST: 5 (indiscernible) 6 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Yeah, I -- 7 given the sort of way this is developed to ensure 8 we have a packet with conversations and emails 9 going on back and forth over many months, I think 10 waiving the 30-day requirement is appropriate. 11 And if necessary, I would make a motion to waive 12 that requirement. 13 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Second the 14 motion? 15 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: I second. 16 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: All right. 17 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 18 Nancy Filsinger? 19 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Aye. 20 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 21 Thomas Dunst? 22 BOARD MEMBER THOMAS DUNST: Aye. 23 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 24 Mark Grady? 25 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Aye. Page 8 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 2 Scott Ratke? 3 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: Aye. 4 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 5 Adam Bazelon? 6 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Aye. 7 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 8 Motion carries to waive. 9 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: (indiscernible) 10 anything. Anything else? 11 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: No, I 12 was ready to call the case. This is again, not 13 really evidence-based, it's more argument-based. 14 So, you can decide whether you think it's 15 appropriate to swear the witnesses in. 16 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Can I ask a 17 preliminary question? 18 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: Yeah. 19 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Is there a 20 standard of review that's applicable to the 21 Village's decision in this case? Like, are we 22 reviewing it de novo? Is it deference to their 23 decision? Is it -- 24 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: There 25 really is not a standard of review. I think it's Page 9 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 the applicant's burden, as they are challenging 2 it. But beyond that, there is really no standard 3 of review. 4 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: All right. 5 Agenda Item 4, Case 2024-078339, Lake Drive, 6 appeal of administrative decision. The applicant 7 is requesting an appeal of the decision of Fox 8 Point Village Manager, Scott Botcher, regarding 9 the requirement for grading and day drainage 10 permit pursuant to Section 756-7E(1) of the Fox 11 Point municipals. Why don't we have them swear 12 in? 13 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 14 Should I start with the applicant first or do you 15 want to start with staff? 16 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Staff. 17 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 18 All right. Raise your right hand and state your 19 name and address for the record, please? 20 VILLAGE MANAGER SCOTT BOTCHER: Scott 21 Botcher, 714 (indiscernible), Wisconsin. 22 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 23 BRANDMEIER: Scott Brandmeier, 8525 North 24 (indiscernible) Street, (indiscernible) 25 Wisconsin. Page 10 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 2 Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you 3 shall give in this matter shall be the truth, the 4 whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help 5 you God? 6 VILLAGE MANAGER SCOTT BOTCHER: I do. 7 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 8 BRANDMEIER: I do. 9 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 10 Thank you. 11 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Okay. Scott or 12 Scott, do you want to discuss why you brought 13 this to us? Or why it was brought to us? 14 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Can I ask, 15 we've got a very thick (indiscernible). I don't 16 know how many pages. I don't personally, maybe 17 others disagree, I don't want you to go through 18 it, page by page. 19 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 20 BRANDMEIER: No, no, no, no, no. 21 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I would 22 rather you just tell me what permits you've 23 requested the applicant obtain and why. 24 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 25 BRANDMEIER: I would encourage you, then, to go Page 11 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 to the memo that I prepared for you. And on the 2 page that it starts on, it's dated September 19th 3 (indiscernible) from your packet, probably 4 around, I would say Page 45, 46, somewhere in 5 there. 6 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Oh, okay. 7 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 8 BRANDMEIER: In your packet of information. I've 9 prepared a five-page memorandum (indiscernible) 10 permits that are required. 11 (Cross talk) 12 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: Is it within 13 your emails, or is it a -- 14 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 15 BRANDMEIER: (indiscernible) 16 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: Okay. I got 17 you, letterhead. 18 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: It looks 19 like this. 20 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: Okay. That 21 helps. 22 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 23 BRANDMEIER: Thank you, Adam. Yeah. 24 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: Was it near 25 the beginning or the end? Page 12 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 VILLAGE MANAGER SCOTT BOTCHER: You're 2 very close. It's, I think, after the pictures. 3 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: Okay. 4 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 5 BRANDMEIER: I thought you maybe went too far. 6 Yeah, it's right -- 7 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 8 BRANDMEIER: I'm at Attachment 12. 9 VILLAGE MANAGER SCOTT BOTCHER: Here at 10 Attachment 12 (indiscernible) 11 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: Okay. 12 VILLAGE MANAGER SCOTT BOTCHER: Near 13 the front. The applicant has (indiscernible) 14 after that. 15 BOARD MEMBER THOMAS DUNST: Yeah, I 16 found it. 17 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: I found it, 18 yeah. 19 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 20 We had (indiscernible) 21 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: Right there? 22 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 23 BRANDMEIER: (indiscernible) 24 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: Ah, thank 25 you. Page 13 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 2 BRANDMEIER: (indiscernible), correct, correct, 3 correct, correct, correct. (indiscernible) All 4 right, so depending on what an applicant does on 5 their property. We'll help construct the 6 petition, planning certain activities, et cetera. 7 where a number of permits that may be required by 8 the Village Code and there's certain triggers 9 within each section of the Village Code. 10 And I go through that in this memo, and 11 I included copies of the Code for your reference 12 and for your benefit. Looking at the first one, 13 Article 4 of Chapter 285, which is at the bottom 14 of Page one of your memo, requires 15 (indiscernible) control permit to an individual 16 performing land surveying activities, et cetera. 17 Affecting a service area of 8,000 18 square feet or more. Now, of course, there's 19 other triggers within the Code Section of Chapter 20 285 that would trigger (indiscernible) cases. 21 Then on the top of Page two, Chapter 272 is our 22 Fill Ordinance. That requires applicants to 23 obtain a fill permit if they place more than 25 24 cubic yards of fill on their project. 25 The impetus to having the field Page 14 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 ordinance was a project that was undertaken by a 2 property owner here in the Village, before I 3 started, eighteen and a half years ago, where he 4 wanted 7,000 cubic yards of fill, roughly, and 5 there was no permitting process in place at the 6 time. 7 So, it affected service water drainage 8 and ran off of private parcels. So, the Village 9 got embroiled in lawsuits and that property owner 10 got involved in other lawsuits with other 11 neighbors on that particular situation. So, that 12 ordinance was adopted to address where applicants 13 are placing more than 25 cubic yards of fill and 14 may adversely impact neighboring property owners 15 from a drainage perspective. 16 And then 756-7E is within your building 17 code and that requires individuals to form a 18 grading and drainage analysis where applications 19 for land disturbing activities requiring a permit 20 that affects the surface area for those square 21 feet or more. And so, as you read through the 22 memo, there's ample attachments of the history 23 behind all of this, 27, if memory serves me 24 correctly. 25 And if you go to the bottom of Page Page 15 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 four, the determination being what we found in 2 all of this is that the applicant initially sent 3 in an application showing roughly 4,500 square 4 feet of disturbed area when he first applied for 5 a permit. We explained permitting requirements 6 to the applicant and his engineer. 7 We subsequently received a revised 8 application saying, "Well, we're only going to 9 affect 2,100 square feet." All that information 10 is contained within the attachments. A permit 11 was issued with the understanding that if those 12 quantities were ever exceeded, if more than 25 13 yards of fill was placed on the property, if you 14 disturb more than the 4,000 or 8,000 square feet 15 of surface area, you would then have to comply 16 with -- it would be retroactive to the date 17 (indiscernible) application and comply with the 18 permit requirements. 19 And so, what we found in the pictures 20 to show, and the documentation that has been 21 presented, is that the land disturbing activity 22 affected more than 8,000 square feet. So, that 23 kicked them into a number of Code requirements. 24 (indiscernible), grading and drainage and also 25 that, from the naked eye, it appears as though Page 16 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 more than 25 cubic yards of fill has been placed 2 on the property. 3 But we have not been able to determine 4 that definitively because we don't have the post 5 grades compared against what were the existing 6 grades before the project started. When you get 7 those, that's a requirement of the fill ordinance 8 that applicants have to provide that information. 9 And that'll tell us whether 25 cubic yards of 10 fill is placed or less. 11 And if we don't have that information, 12 then we can't say definitively whether it applies 13 or not. So, when we obtain that, we do require, 14 especially when somebody is placing fill, you 15 have to prepare that drawing by an engineer that 16 will show that comparative analysis so we can 17 say, definitively, "Yes, it applies" or "No, it 18 does not." So, those are the requirements and 19 the steps that we go through with all of this. 20 There is a disagreement between the 21 applicant and staff on whether it applies. And 22 then you fast forward through the months of 23 November and December and as attachments show, 24 and the agreement was, we would go to Mr. 25 Botcher, and he would serve as almost a quasi- Page 17 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 judicial arbitrator in the matter. 2 And before Mr. Botcher, the three of us 3 sat in his office and the issue was, what is a 4 land disturbing activity? Mr. Botcher researched 5 it, consulted with the Village Attorney and 6 rendered a decision on December 23, 2023, that it 7 was a land disturbing activity. Subsequent to 8 that, the thought was, (indiscernible) rendered 9 his decision. 10 You now are required to comply with the 11 various components of the Village Code because 12 all parties agreed at the time that we would 13 abide by the decision. If the definition of 14 "land disturbing activity" kept them out of the 15 Village Code of Requirements, there would be no 16 need for him to apply for the various permit 17 requirements. 18 But based on the definition of "land 19 disturbing activities" and the opinion that we 20 received from the Village Attorney, it triggered 21 all the requirements to comply with Chapter 285, 22 Chapter 756-7E and then, quite likely, Chapters 23 272 for the fill ordinance. We're here today 24 because there's the continual disagreement, for 25 lack of a better term, on the part of the Page 18 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 applicant, that what he has done constitutes a 2 land disturbing activity. 3 But based on our ordinance and the 4 opinion that we received from the Village 5 Attorney, (indiscernible) by Mr. Botcher, it 6 would appear that he does fall within the 7 requirements of (indiscernible) 8 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: I -- are 9 you done? 10 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 11 BRANDMEIER: I (indiscernible) for the moment. 12 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: So, 13 there were several references to me. And I just 14 want to be clear, I have had nothing to do with 15 this, other than I was asked to question, "What 16 does the term 'land disturbing activity' mean?" 17 That was the question. It was out of the context 18 of nothing. 19 What does that definition mean? And I 20 provided, I believe, two statutory definitions 21 and the Code definition and said, "Here's a 22 definition. Here's a definition. Here's a 23 definition." I don't believe I had any other 24 involvement and correct me if I'm wrong. 25 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT Page 19 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 BRANDMEIER: That is correct. 2 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: So, I 3 don't believe I have a conflict, but I think it's 4 important that this be a fair process. I'd be 5 happy to step down and get you special counsel if 6 you believe that's a concern. 7 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Just for 8 reference, I believe the three definitions that 9 Attorney Larson referenced are contained in Mr. 10 Botcher's -- it's an email or a letter. 11 VILLAGE MANAGER SCOTT BOTCHER: 12 (indiscernible) 13 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I don't 14 remember the date of it. Do you have it in front 15 of you? 16 VILLAGE MANAGER SCOTT BOTCHER: 17 Correct. Mr. Larson (indiscernible) the 18 statutory citation. 19 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Right. But 20 you incorporated it into something you sent to 21 the applicant? 22 VILLAGE MANAGER SCOTT BOTCHER: What's 23 that? 24 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: You 25 incorporated those definitions into something you Page 20 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 sent to the applicant? 2 VILLAGE MANAGER SCOTT BOTCHER: Yeah. 3 I went and looked at the statutes myself. 4 (indiscernible) 5 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: And what was 6 the -- I don't have it in front of me. What was 7 the date of that communication? 8 VILLAGE MANAGER SCOTT BOTCHER: 9 December 21, 2023. 10 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Email or 11 letter? 12 VILLAGE MANAGER SCOTT BOTCHER: It was 13 an email. 14 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Okay. 15 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 16 BRANDMEIER: And I apologize I misspoke. I 17 thought it was the 23rd. I was just going off of 18 memory. It was the 21st of December. 19 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: All I'm 20 trying to do is confirm the information Attorney 21 Larson passed to you is contained in that 22 communication, correct? 23 VILLAGE MANAGER SCOTT BOTCHER: That's 24 correct. 25 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: Where is Page 21 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 that email? Do you know, in relation to the 2 memo? 3 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 4 BRANDMEIER: The applicant has it in his and it 5 is also contained within my (indiscernible) 6 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 7 It's right after the pictures. So, there's the 8 pictures, and then the email. 9 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: I see it. 10 Yeah, okay. 11 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: 12 (indiscernible) Attachment 21. 13 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 14 (indiscernible) 15 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Yeah 16 (indiscernible) Brandmeier, you said that it 17 appears there's over 8,000 square feet of land 18 disturbing activities. 19 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 20 BRANDMEIER: Yes. 21 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Just 22 factually, what is your basis for that? What are 23 you saying has been disturbed? 24 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 25 BRANDMEIER: For that, I provided images. Let me Page 22 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 find the attachment for you. I'll have to look 2 back at my memo again. 3 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I saw several 4 different things and I just want you to point me 5 to one. 6 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 7 BRANDMEIER: Well, I prepared a number of emails 8 for the applicant, which I included in the packet 9 that I sent out. 10 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: If it's -- 11 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 12 BRANDMEIER: It's in there, but I would like 13 (indiscernible) so, what I did was, I looked at - 14 - there were personal observation of a site, 15 erosion control, (indiscernible) provided to the 16 applicant. That's one of them, where you see the 17 pictures of disturbing area, that's early 18 disturbing area on the site. 19 And then what I ended up doing for the 20 benefit of the applicant, as well as for 21 (indiscernible) was, digitizing, through GIS, 22 what the disturbance area was based on 23 observations on-site and the pictures that we 24 have. Yes, thank you. You found them. 25 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: So, what I'm Page 23 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 looking at is a photograph or computer drawing, 2 whichever you call it, attached to an email from 3 you to the applicant dated December 6, 2023. 4 There's more than one copy in our packets. 5 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 6 BRANDMEIER: Yes, yes. 7 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: And that area 8 -- 9 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 10 BRANDMEIER: Attachment 15, for everybody's 11 benefit. 12 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: The area 13 you're -- 14 BOARD MEMBER THOMAS DUNST: 15 (indiscernible) 16 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: The area that 17 you're including within that 12,000 square feet 18 is the greyish-blue area, correct? 19 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 20 BRANDMEIER: That is correct. 21 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: That's the 22 area you're considering to be land disturbing -- 23 where land disturbing activities took place? 24 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 25 BRANDMEIER: That is correct. Page 24 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: And then you 2 also reference the photographs of the 3 construction. 4 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 5 BRANDMEIER: That is correct. 6 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: You said 7 December 6, 2023? 8 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Yes. There's 9 more than one in the packet, so -- 10 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 11 BRANDMEIER: You are -- that is correct, yes. 12 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: Madame 13 Chair? 14 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Oh, I’m sorry. 15 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: I have a 16 couple of questions. Is the work done? 17 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 18 BRANDMEIER: Yes. 19 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: The work 20 is done? 21 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 22 BRANDMEIER: The exterior work appears to be 23 done, though the applicant has requested an 24 additional -- has made an additional request to 25 remove the (indiscernible) tree in order to Page 25 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 expand the driveway to the west. 2 So, it depends on the applicant's 3 actions and whether that proceeds or not. That 4 request has not been considered at this time. 5 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: Okay. 6 So, if the conclusion is that these permits are 7 required, mostly what we're talking about is the 8 money for a permit fee? Is that correct? 9 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: 10 (indiscernible) 11 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 12 BRANDMEIER: Well, you're looking at an analysis 13 to ensure that they're not adversely impacting 14 (indiscernible) property owners. The rationale 15 behind the grading and drainage analysis is to 16 perform a (indiscernible) and 100-year storm 17 analysis of pre-development conditions and post- 18 development conditions. 19 And the reason for that is, when I 20 started here eighteen and a half years ago, there 21 was no such process in place. And we had some 22 developments going up, we've got residential 23 inflow, and I would get complaints from so many 24 property owners that this was adversely affecting 25 their property, the developer. Page 26 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 So, after consultation with other 2 staff, my experience in the private sector, we 3 adopted that portion of the Code to include if 4 you needed a permit, if you needed a fill permit, 5 if you needed a building permit, you'd have to go 6 through that analysis so that you could show you 7 were not adversely impacting a neighbor. 8 So, it's not just the permit fee that 9 is being discussed here, it's the analysis that's 10 the critical component of, does the action of the 11 applicant, by raising the grade, by disturbing 12 this area, adversely impact the neighbors with 13 additional flow off this property onto an 14 adjacent property. And that's what we look at in 15 this analysis. 16 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Just to 17 follow that up, then, assuming the permit was 18 applied for, the information was submitted, the 19 analysis was done and you found that there was an 20 effect on neighboring properties, then some 21 remedial work would have to be done as well. 22 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 23 BRANDMEIER: That is correct. 24 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: So, I mean, 25 it's -- Page 27 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 2 BRANDMEIER: And what we've required in the past, 3 for example, if you're wondering, some sort of 4 rain garden to slow down the flow of water to a 5 neighboring property or a storage basin on the 6 property because you do have that component of 7 residential infill. 8 It's tough, but we use an approach of, 9 let's look at what the impacts are to the 10 neighbors, make sure that it's not a significant 11 impact, for lack of a better term. 12 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: And so, 13 this is holding up the occupancy permit being 14 issued? Everything else is done other than this 15 issue? 16 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 17 BRANDMEIER: I cannot speak for Mr. Rocco. I 18 don't believe that everything is done from his 19 perspective on that. 20 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Okay. 21 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 22 BRANDMEIER: There are still other issues, if I'm 23 not mistaken, that need to be addressed from a 24 building perspective, and I don't know where 25 those stand at the moment. But from our -- from Page 28 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 a Village perspective, on the engineering side of 2 things, these have not been -- 3 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Thank you. Any 4 other questions? Tom? 5 BOARD MEMBER THOMAS DUNST: No 6 questions. 7 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Scott? Adam? 8 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: Not for now. 9 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: No. 10 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Nothing for Mr. 11 Botcher? (indiscernible) Any closing testimony 12 for these (indiscernible) 13 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: 14 (indiscernible) 15 VILLAGE ATTORNEY MARK LARSON: We'll 16 just move on to the next one. 17 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: All right. 18 VILLAGE ATTORNEY MARK LARSON: You 19 don't need to close the testimony. 20 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 21 All right. Very good. If you could raise your 22 right hand and state your name and address for 23 the record, please? 24 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Ralph 25 Bencriscutto, (indiscernible). Page 29 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 2 All right. Do you solemnly swear that the 3 testimony you give in this matter shall be the 4 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, 5 so help you God? 6 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Yes. 7 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 8 BRANDMEIER: May I ask a question? The applicant 9 (indiscernible) 10 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Address 11 (indiscernible) 12 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 13 BRANDMEIER: -- the property that's being under 14 development, is that his home address or -- 15 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: It's not my home 16 address. It's (indiscernible) but that's 17 (indiscernible) 18 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 19 (indiscernible) 20 VILLAGE ATTORNEY MARK LARSON: Well, we 21 need to know your address, where you're living 22 because there may be -- 23 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: (indiscernible) 24 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 25 Thank you. Page 30 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 2 BRANDMEIER: Can I ask another question? 3 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Yes. 4 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 5 BRANDMEIER: Is that your business address? 6 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Well, I 7 wouldn't mind as to what Scott just did for us, 8 if Ralph could -- may I call you Ralph? Could, 9 sort of, summarize -- I know you gave us 10 something. This is from you, right? As you see 11 the issue evolving? 12 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Well, I don't 13 disagree with most of what staff said on the 14 permits and the reasons for permits and why 15 they're important for everybody. (indiscernible) 16 We want to make sure the buyers' going to sell 17 this. The first (indiscernible) or history, I 18 guess (indiscernible) is, (indiscernible). ES is 19 a good firm for the neighbors. (indiscernible). 20 So, we did get Permit 285. We 21 submitted a plan. I mean (indiscernible) at some 22 point, by an engineer, to say that this is how 23 it's going to end up. So, after doing that, the 24 requirement was to (indiscernible) and if you 25 look at the property, you can't grade the Page 31 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 property because, not only (indiscernible) feet 2 from the (indiscernible) to the west and we're 3 the low spot in the yard. 4 So, (indiscernible). We couldn't add 5 any dirt, or we could push the water into his 6 yard. And while we were doing construction, we 7 saw this because the (indiscernible) piled up 8 there. And we tried to get rid of most of it and 9 see -- we not only did -- we had to get ducts in 10 the process. So, we scraped all the dirt off 11 (indiscernible) bricks. 12 And I don't know if you guys drove by 13 the project when it was going on, but it rained 14 for the entire summer and it was a mud pit, and 15 we couldn't get the stuff out of there. And then 16 I have three contractors with five trucks and all 17 this equipment to get this mud out of there 18 because it just -- it was that clay that you've 19 got around here. It's terrible. 20 And we finally got it all out of there 21 by fall and then we started putting the grass 22 back together because we were driving on the 23 grass, messed up the yard. 24 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: May I just 25 interrupt you just for a second. But the mud Page 32 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 you're referring to is from the excavation of the 2 basement or something else? 3 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: We had a small 4 addition, 680 feet and we had 262 yards of clay 5 that we took out and had to get rid of. That's 6 the only requirement for (indiscernible). So, we 7 were doing what we thought we were supposed to 8 do. We got rid of all this mud and then messed 9 up the yard. So, we started to replant the yard 10 (indiscernible). We had to re-seed it. 11 So, we spread (indiscernible) and then 12 re-seeded it. We tried to get it to grow back 13 before winter. The dispute comes when the 14 definition of "land disturbing activity", which 15 has been reiterated here two times. It's a broad 16 term. In the permit for (indiscernible) grades, 17 land surveying activity is relating to what 18 you're grading. It has to be 4,000 feet. Land 19 disturbing activity still describes grading and 20 filling of a minimum of 4,000 feet. 21 The second section (indiscernible) has 22 a minimum of 8,000 square feet, as Scott 23 (indiscernible). We were well below. So, when 24 we went over 8,000 feet, we already had 25 (indiscernible) and it didn't really matter the Page 33 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 argument of, "Well, you're riding on the grass, 2 so you disturbed the land." Now, I understand 3 the broad definition of "land disturbing 4 activity" because, let's say, you're on a bluff, 5 that's Section 3. 6 Well, now we can't just go and take off 7 the grass or the plants because now, all the 8 water is going to -- you're going to lose 9 (indiscernible). It's going to run to the 10 (indiscernible) of somebody's yard or what have 11 you. So, there's stricter definitions of "land 12 disturbing activity". If you follow the strict 13 definition of "land disturbing activity", we 14 couldn't even cut the grass because we're 15 disturbing the vegetation. 16 So, this interpretation of "land 17 disturbing activity", all of a sudden gets 18 flipped. Well, wait a minute, you disturbed more 19 than 4,000 feet, so now you need a grading here. 20 But we're not grading it. So, I asked, even the 21 Code itself has the exceptions (indiscernible) 22 plants and (indiscernible) grass, landscaping, 23 sidewalks. It's all spelled out. It's in the 24 (indiscernible). It's clear. 25 There's no disputing it. These are the Page 34 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 exemptions for (indiscernible) a permit. So, if 2 you take those exemptions off, we didn't grade 3 anything or fill anything. All we filled was the 4 driveway and the patio and we put some dirt 5 around the house for the landscaping. You could 6 see the pictures. If you go to the house and 7 look at it, we had the same walkway that was 8 there before we got the house, in the yard, right 9 where it was. 10 So, the definition all of a sudden 11 becomes, "Wait a minute. We already had the 12 (indiscernible) permit, but now we need a fill 13 and grading permit too." Now, this isn't just a 14 matter of paying bucks. This is a $5,000 cash 15 bond, engineered plots, 45-day plan 16 (indiscernible). And how am I supposed to make 17 this permit? I'm not grading anything. 18 So, and then you come back to me and 19 say, "Well, you added fill underneath the 20 driveway." I said, "Well, sure did." You come 21 back and say, "Wait a minute. It's exempt but 22 you can't just add a foot of fill there because 23 your garage is higher than it was and now you had 24 to add a foot of fill underneath your driveway." 25 There's no (indiscernible) in this fill Page 35 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 and grading permit where the drive is exempt, but 2 if you add your fill there, well then there's 3 another implied permit for that portion. And 4 that includes the patio and the planters. We 5 stated that we added fill. That's the only place 6 that's agreed to that we added fill. 7 We had to add gravel underneath the 8 driveway. I mean, we had to. We had to put it 9 there so -- where everybody could sit. So, this 10 is where the argument comes in and then, there's 11 no discussing it because it just came to the 12 conclusion that, well, we disturbed the land, 13 over 4,000. Now, you need a grading and fill 14 permit. This is the whole premise. I said, 15 "Well, I already have an erosion control permit, 16 which makes sense." 17 But if you look at the drawing, he 18 included the garage, the driveway, the patio and 19 sidewalks, the planters, everything. Boulders. 20 The boulders, they said, required a fill and 21 grading permit. It said that's fill. Boulders. 22 This, to me, was total nonsense. But not only 23 that, it's impossible to get this permit. What 24 am I supposed to do, give a plan where I'm not 25 going to do anything? Page 36 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 So, then, I gave them the before and 2 after elevations. It's in the package. This was 3 done by the engineer (indiscernible). He says he 4 didn't get it. He says he didn't get it because 5 he refused to open it. It's in his emails. He 6 refused to open the final elevations that I 7 supplied from (indiscernible). Why? 8 Because it showed I didn't include 9 them. So, I don't know if he ever did look at 10 it, but here they are. You have a copy, and the 11 elevations show there's no difference. So, how 12 would I get a permit for grading unless it's 13 related to the exemptions? And even if you took 14 the exemptions of the driveway, patio, sidewalks, 15 and add them all up, it's still (indiscernible) 16 square feet. 17 So, how did that get to 4,000 square 18 feet, filling and grading? You don't. The only 19 way you get to that number, 4,000 square feet, is 20 land disturbing activities. Now, that was the 21 case, the land disturbing activity 22 (indiscernible) requirements of the grading 23 permit, then you would have to get a grading 24 permit (indiscernible) because it's nonsense. 25 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: I have a Page 37 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 couple of questions. What is the exemptions 2 listed in 756-7? I’m just trying to like -- I 3 see where it talks about -- I have it right in 4 front of me. You just have the citation? 5 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: It's 72-20, Page 6 4. 7 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: So 8 (indiscernible) 9 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: Do you want 10 to look at that? 11 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Okay, so -- 12 well, the requirement for the permit comes from 13 756-7, correct? 14 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: We're talking 15 about three permits. Fill permit? 16 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Yeah. 17 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Grading and 18 drainage permit and erosion control permit. 19 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Okay. So, 20 the exceptions apply to all -- 21 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I'm just -- I 22 just -- I'm not saying that. I'm just saying 272 23 is the fill ordinance, fill permit, with the 24 exceptions he's talking about for the driveway 25 and patio. 756 is the grading section, which has Page 38 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 the 4,000-foot land disturbance requirement. 2 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Right, and 3 I don't see any exceptions in 756-7. 4 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Yes. 5 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: (indiscernible) 6 getting the (indiscernible) permit says -- the 7 first line, it's "grading activity exceeded -- 8 grading and filling exceed 4,000 feet." When we 9 get further down, explaining (indiscernible). 10 Then they go back to the generic term, "land 11 disturbing activity" and it's already defined in 12 this. 13 And it's in that (indiscernible), it's 14 directly related to the above subheading of, 15 Grading. The land disturbing activity 16 (indiscernible) in that (indiscernible). It's 17 not relating to not grading. 18 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: And this 19 was a tear down of a home, correct? 20 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: No. It was an 21 addition. 22 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Okay. 23 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: A small addition. 24 So, it's not a new (indiscernible). No, 25 (indiscernible) Page 39 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: When was 2 the house -- the main house constructed? I swear 3 this is a brand new house. 4 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: It looks like it 5 now because (indiscernible) 6 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: He just added 7 to it. 8 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I think -- 9 well, the old house that was there was 10 essentially gutted. 11 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Okay, so 12 the structure -- 13 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: The frame -- 14 the structural framing was left behind 15 (indiscernible) and then a new addition was added 16 onto it with garages. An addition and garages. 17 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: I have a picture 18 (indiscernible)? 19 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Sure. 20 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: The before and 21 after grades and this (indiscernible). 22 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: It looks like 23 a new house. 24 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Yeah. So, 25 do you have an alternate definition of "land Page 40 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 disturbing activity" or do you just believe that 2 the Village is interpreting it too broadly? 3 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: No, they're not -- 4 not interpreting that broadly. I mean, it is a 5 broad description (indiscernible) all three 6 parts. Because if you're grading, your land 7 disturbing activity is related to the grading. 8 If you're erosion control, and that's all you're 9 doing is messing up and you don't want the dirt 10 to run off, then that's 8,000 feet, but that's 11 land disturbing activity. 12 If you're on a bluff, there's different 13 parameters because you can't do things on a 14 bluff. You have to have a 10 percent grading and 15 then some. Now that's where you'd say you 16 wouldn't want to take the grass off without doing 17 something. So, your definition is related to the 18 subsection (indiscernible). The definition of 19 land disturbing activities is not 20 (indiscernible). 21 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: And did you 22 already move all the grass, the top level of the 23 soil? 24 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: No, but it got 25 wrecked, kind of. We went over it and Page 41 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 (indiscernible). We had to re-plant it. 2 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I just want 3 to clarify a comment you made when you said the 4 permit just references grading. You're talking 5 about, I think it's your Attachment 4. The 6 permit from the Village of Fox Point that says, 7 "A grading and drainage plan must be submitted 8 pursuant to 756. 9 If, among other things, a new principal 10 building is to be constructed, or a grading 11 activity affects more than 4,000 square feet." 12 So, that's the basis of your argument, that you 13 didn't grade 4,000 feet? 14 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Exactly, and 15 there's exemptions because it's relating to the 16 building grade code 272 and exemptions are 272- 17 10. So, those things are not in the permit 18 requirement for grading and fill, but there's no 19 (indiscernible). So, if I put gravel in my 20 driveway, you can't (indiscernible) 21 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Let's -- for 22 a second, let's leave the driveway and patio 23 alone. Let's just talk about the rest of the 24 area because I think I see them as two different 25 things, two different questions. So, if we just Page 42 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 look at the areas, apart from the driveway and 2 the patio, Mr. Brandmeier had that diagram, or 3 whatever you want to call it, that we looked at 4 earlier, that showed all the blue and grey 5 surrounding pretty much the entire lot. 6 It's included within what he considered 7 a land disturbing activity. And you're saying 8 that, forgetting about the driveway and patio, 9 the rest of that that he has as land disturbing 10 activity, you don't think it's land disturbing 11 activity. 12 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: It doesn’t matter 13 to me at all if it's land disturbing activity. 14 (indiscernible) That's not relative. I had an 15 erosion control permit 285, which I paid for and 16 submitted erosion control plans. It was accepted 17 and I was well under the 8,000 feet. Now, he 18 says I'm over the 8,000 feet. It doesn't matter. 19 That was the minimum. The 8,000 feet was the 20 minimum. I got (indiscernible) for his 21 (indiscernible) 22 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Got it. But 23 if we exclude the patio and driveway, the rest of 24 the surface area of your property is more than 25 8,000 square feet. You would agree with that, Page 43 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 wouldn't you? 2 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: It's -- 3 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I mean, all 4 the yard around the sides, the front and back. 5 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Well, the backyard 6 is only 25 feet long, so it's not 8,000 -- it's 7 still not 8,000 feet of grass, (indiscernible) 8 grass. 9 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: So, we have a 10 fundamental dispute about whether there's 8,000 11 square feet of property. 12 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: I think the 13 problem -- it's a third of an acre, so that's 14 15,000 with the house and everything. 15 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Can I ask a 16 very fundamental question? I don't know what 17 we're supposed to be deciding. This, to me, is a 18 garbled mess. But maybe you guys know what's 19 going on here, but I don't. There's factual 20 issues, there's legal issues, there's three 21 codes, there's one code, there's exceptions that 22 I can't find. 23 I have no idea what we're even debating 24 or talking about. Am I the only one who is that 25 confused? Page 44 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: You didn't see the 2 (indiscernible)? 3 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: I -- 4 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I -- 5 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: When I looked at 6 this packet -- 7 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I don't know 8 if this is appropriate at this point of the 9 proceeding. 10 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: If a judge 11 got this in court, he'd throw it in the garbage 12 and say, "I don't know what's going on here." 13 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Well, I think 14 -- 15 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: I'm not a 16 judge, but that's about where I am. 17 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: They've made 18 a decision that -- setting erosion control aside 19 for a moment, because they got that permit. But 20 he needs to obtain a grading and drainage permit 21 because he's for sure more than 4,000 square 22 feet. And he needs a fill permit because he's 23 filled more than 25 cubic yards of fill. 24 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: And just 25 a caveat to that, what I heard was that they need Page 45 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 to submit plans so that a determination can be 2 made on whether they need a fill permit. 3 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: So, can you 4 -- 5 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: But to the 6 naked eye, you're right. I agree with that. 7 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: So, what 8 code section are we or what code or statutory 9 sections are we looking at? I would like to get 10 an understanding of which sections I can pick up 11 and look at and say, "We need your interpretation 12 on this." And then I'd like to know if it's a 13 purely legal issue or what we decide a legal 14 issue then relates to a factual issue as to how 15 many feet were actually disturbed. 16 So, if we agree with the land 17 disturbing definition, it sounds like then 18 there's a factual issue because under one 19 interpretation put forth by Ralph, he says, "Even 20 if you include the patio in this, I'm still under 21 4,000 feet", so -- 22 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: Here's 23 my suggestion. This is the petitioner's petition 24 to you saying, "I've been asked to do something 25 that I don't think I should be asked to do." So, Page 46 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 I think we should have the petitioner begin this 2 saying -- to tell us, what is he being asked to 3 do that he thinks he should not be asked to do? 4 What exactly? 5 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: That's where we 6 are? 7 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: Yes. 8 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Okay. So, 9 what code sections do you believe were improperly 10 interpreted? Can you give me the code, section 11 and the statutory section, by number, to start? 12 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Well -- 13 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Are you 14 able to do that? 15 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Yes. 16 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Okay. 17 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: It's 272. 18 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: 272. 19 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: (indiscernible) 20 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: 272 point - 21 - 272-10, I see is the exceptions. 22 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: 272-1 is 23 (indiscernible) determined for solid fill 24 (indiscernible) 25 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: All right. Page 47 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: If it helps, 2 the code and ordinance sections -- 3 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Yeah. 4 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: -- are in Mr. 5 Brandmeier's packet or attachments. All three of 6 them came in the main section. 7 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: 8 (indiscernible) 9 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Attachment 2. 10 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: (indiscernible) 11 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: Okay. 12 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: (indiscernible) 13 the Village (indiscernible) 14 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: They're in 15 the packet. 16 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: They're in the 17 packet. 18 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: They're in that. 19 But that's what I was required to do for the 20 (indiscernible), to make sure I didn't change the 21 grading. That's what I did. 22 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Okay. So, 23 we have 272-1 and now we have code 756-7, right? 24 And then there's section 285 or Chapter 285. Are 25 we (indiscernible) too? Page 48 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: 285-43, is that 2 right? No, that's the permit application. 3 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: To clarify, it's 4 (indiscernible) 256 is the permit, which 5 (indiscernible) 6 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: 7 (indiscernible) 8 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: So, the idea is, 9 there you get (indiscernible). So, the code is 10 272 (indiscernible), 285. 11 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Okay. 12 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I'm 13 concerned, and I think the (indiscernible) code 14 sections apply there. I'm concerned about any 15 factual disputes. That's what we need 16 information from. We've heard the argument, I 17 think, from the applicant that he believes these 18 exceptions that are in 272 apply to the grading 19 and drainage permit under whatever section it is, 20 756. 21 But I thought we had a general 22 agreement that if you ignore the driveway and 23 patio for the moment, that's there's more than 24 4,000 square feet of yardage -- more than 8,000 25 square feet of yardage around this property, Page 49 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 around the building. And now I'm hearing the 2 applicant say no, so I don't even know how we 3 resolve that factual dispute. 4 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Well, that's not a 5 dispute. The 8,000 feet is the minimum for the 6 erosion -- 7 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I understand. 8 But the question -- 9 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: It doesn't matter, 10 the total. That's the minimum, that's the lowest 11 number that you (indiscernible) 12 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Right. 13 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Also, in that same 14 permit, 285, the exemption is on landscaping 15 activity (indiscernible). So, everything I did 16 on grass is exempt from that also. 17 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I understand 18 you disagree with Mr. Brandmeier's inclusion, or 19 you believe there's inclusion of the landscaping 20 activity. My fundamental point is, whether or 21 not there's 8,000 square feet, more than 8,000 22 square feet of yard around that building that you 23 drove over or you evened out or you top-dressed 24 or you did whatever you want to call it, around 25 that building. Page 50 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: (indiscernible) 2 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: The entire 3 property was a mud pit at one point. Was it not? 4 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Yeah, because we 5 had to -- we took out the (indiscernible) mud, 6 never getting (indiscernible) and we had to do it 7 again. So, the next (indiscernible). And have 8 you ever tried to move wet clay? 9 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: But your 10 argument is, that's not land disturbing activity, 11 when you did that. Right? 12 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: It's land 13 disturbing activity, but I had an erosion control 14 permit. It's just not fill and grading. 15 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Okay. I 16 understand that too. But I'm still trying to get 17 the point, you agree that it's land disturbing 18 activity. Was it more than 8,000 square feet? 19 Whether it was an exception or not, I mean, 20 decide that later. 21 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Without the 22 exemptions, it's probably about 4,000 or 5,000 of 23 grass. 24 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Let's take 25 (indiscernible). Mr. Brandmeier, do you agree Page 51 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 with that? That it's about 4,000 square feet, 2 excluding the driveway and patio? 3 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 4 BRANDMEIER: No, because you can't exclude the 5 driveway or patio. 6 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I know, but I 7 just -- just help me. 8 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 9 BRANDMEIER: I understand (indiscernible) so -- 10 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I want to try 11 to eliminate a factual dispute here if I can. 12 That's what I'm trying to do. 13 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 14 BRANDMEIER: Correct, and that's why I provided 15 that drawing that was in that exhibit -- 16 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Right. 17 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 18 BRANDMEIER: -- that showed the roughly 12,000 19 square feet. 20 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Right, and 21 so, but -- 22 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 23 BRANDMEIER: Because -- 24 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: -- your 25 12,000 square feet includes the driveway and Page 52 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 patio? 2 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 3 BRANDMEIER: And let me explain why. 4 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I understand 5 why. 6 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 7 BRANDMEIER: (indiscernible) because -- well, 8 yes. It does include the driveway and patio 9 because under 756-7D, there are no exceptions. 10 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Yeah, I 11 didn't see any. 12 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: It is over 13 4,000 square feet of disturbed area. 14 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 15 BRANDMEIER: The applicant is taking exceptions 16 in one part of the code and hoping to apply them 17 to a different part of the code, which one cannot 18 do. Now, if you ask me to look at what is the 19 disturbed area outside of the patio and the 20 driveway, I could bring up GIM right now and 21 digitize that for you for the benefit of this 22 work right now. 23 Because that's how I developed that 24 drawing and I could exclude the driveway and the 25 patio just for, as they say, shits and giggles, Page 53 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 so you could see what the disturbed area was on 2 the other parts of the "land". And what it would 3 have to reasonably include the addition that he 4 was doing, because that addition was a disturbed 5 area. He disturbed the land in order to build an 6 addition. 7 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: (indiscernible) 8 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 9 BRANDMEIER: And I’m happy to bring that up 10 because you can see, you've got aerial images 11 that will go back to 1937, and I can bring up a 12 2022 aerial and a 2024 aerial and you can show 13 the difference between the two. This 14 construction of the property began in 2023. 15 So you'll easily be able to see what 16 was existing in 2024 versus what is there now in 17 -- I'm sorry, in 2022 and what is there in 2024. 18 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I -- 19 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 20 BRANDMEIER: And that will provide you, Mr. 21 Grady, with an opportunity to see what that 22 disturbed area is. 23 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: And I -- this 24 is my fault. What I really wanted to focus on 25 was not the 8,000, it was the 4,000. So, in 756- Page 54 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 7(1), it says, "Grading of Lots". It says, "A 2 drainage plan is required for applications for 3 land disturbing activity barring a permit that 4 affects the surface area of 4,000 square feet or 5 more." It says other things too, but it says 6 that. 7 And I think I just heard you say that 8 you agree that what you did with the rest of the 9 yard was land disturbing activity, you agree that 10 it was more than 4,000 square feet, but you 11 believe an exception applies. Correct? The 12 exception being that you didn't fill any of that. 13 Correct or not? Is that not correct? 14 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Close, but what he 15 just said is that permit application 756-7, I 16 believe it is, is not relating to the code 17 exemptions in 272 -- 18 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Right. 19 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: -- which is the 20 code that that permit is applied to. So, how 21 could you say that if the permit and application 22 is not related to the exemptions in that code 23 itself? 24 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: But even if 25 we exempt -- we accept your argument that the Page 55 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 driveway and patio shouldn't be included in that 2 4,000 square feet. I think you agreed with me 3 that the rest of yard is still over 4,000 square 4 feet. Your argument is that you didn't grade, 5 you didn't fill and so therefore, it doesn't 6 require a permit. That's what I thought I heard 7 you say. 8 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: And that's my 9 whole argument is that I have a permit 10 (indiscernible) 8,000 square feet minimum. So, 11 I'm not arguing (indiscernible) 8,000 feet, I 12 just -- 13 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Right. But 14 that was my mistake. Sorry. 15 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: So, if I drove on 16 the grass. We did, we drove on the grass. 17 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Right. 18 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: But that's not a 19 requirement for a fill and grading permit. 20 That’s relating to the erosion control permit, 21 and it makes sense. It better make sense that 22 (indiscernible) dirt all on the street into 23 (indiscernible) and that's what we didn't do. 24 So, that makes sense. That's the problem we had. 25 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: So, I want to Page 56 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 switch gears now and talk about fill for a 2 minute. It talks about a fill permit being 3 required. You used more than 25 cubic yards of 4 fill. Right? Correct? And your argument is, 5 you get to exclude the driveway and the patio, 6 under your argument, and if you exclude them, you 7 didn't put 25 yards of fill on the rest of the 8 property. 9 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: I put 13 yards of 10 black dirt (indiscernible). But that, you know, 11 it's sort of a -- it's an ambiguous part of the 12 code (indiscernible). 25 yards of fill, but does 13 that include -- 14 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Let's assume 15 the top dressing is not included, just for the 16 sake of argument. You didn't put any other fill 17 anywhere else, along the house or anywhere else? 18 Because I thought it looked like the -- 19 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: We probably put -- 20 we pushed it around the house because we took out 21 all the bushes and pushed it back. 22 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: And you 23 created slope grading away from the house, right? 24 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: But if you look at 25 the house, it's (indiscernible). It's Page 57 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 (indiscernible) and we didn't (indiscernible). 2 We couldn't because the basement windows, we only 3 had this much room for it the way it was. But 4 the house was already (indiscernible). You can 5 build a house, you can't make it lower. 6 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: If you didn't 7 raise the building, why did you need to raise -- 8 put dirt underneath the driveway to raise it? I 9 don't understand that. 10 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Well, if you look 11 at the elevations, there's a pretty steep grade 12 from the driveway to the fence line of the west 13 (indiscernible), almost two feet. 14 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Okay. 15 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: But previously, in 16 the picture, you can see that the front of the 17 driveway (indiscernible), it was higher. It was 18 680 and then when you go down the fence line, 19 it's 678. So, there was a real good grade 20 (indiscernible). When we put our new driveway 21 and the garage in, it just pushed it over another 22 15, 10 feet or so. 23 But we had to add dirt underneath the 24 new driveway anyway. (indiscernible) dirt and 25 gravel to fill it. Page 58 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: There was a 2 reference in one of the communications from 3 Brandmeier that there was 12-18 inches of 4 foundation above grade for the -- I think it's 5 the addition and the garages. Is that not 6 correct? 7 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: It's correct. So, 8 we put planters in. 9 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: My point is, 10 so, this is higher than the preexisting grade? 11 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: The garage is 12 higher because it's level. 13 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: With the 14 house? 15 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Yeah, and the yard 16 is -- correct. And you got (indiscernible). 17 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: So, you took 18 the elevation of the house, extended it west and 19 that resulted in 12-18 inches above grade, pre- 20 existing grade that was there? 21 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: You see the 22 pictures. That's why we put planters and rocks 23 (indiscernible) to make that transition. 24 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: And again, 25 your argument is that there's exemption for that, Page 59 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 is your argument? 2 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Yes. 3 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: And so, if 4 he had applied for a permit, these as-built 5 elevation drawings would not be sufficient for 6 the plan he would need? 7 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 8 BRANDMEIER: The (indiscernible) that he 9 submitted? 10 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Yeah. 11 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 12 BRANDMEIER: We would compare them. The 13 requirement is that they submit as-built against 14 (indiscernible) existing as-built with the 15 proposed. Because if it followed the normal 16 process, I have a topographic map of the existing 17 conditions. And then I have a map showing the 18 proposed conditions, so it'll show the footprint 19 of what's going to be added on or new 20 construction, plus what the grades are going to 21 be after construction is complete. 22 So, as you referenced, the 12-18 inches 23 and he acknowledged it raised up 12-18 inches 24 because there's two feet of drop from the 25 existing house down to the west property line. Page 60 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 So, then, that would show what the new grades 2 would be around the addition, and we'd be able to 3 say, "Okay. That gives us our fill in that 4 area", and then we'd be able to take that 5 proposed grade, proposed and approved, once that 6 permit is issued and then compare it against the 7 as-built. 8 And then we'd say, "Okay, your as-built 9 grades are showing that you are closer to the 10 approved grades", and we allow a reasonable 11 (indiscernible) because we know that contractors 12 aren't using GPS coordinates on their equipment. 13 They're roughly grading the overall and they 14 assume some elevations and they usually get 15 within a half a foot. 16 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: All right, 17 so we have the before and after. We don't have 18 the proposed. Let's say he paid to get the 19 permit, and we have the after, could he review 20 this? Could he pay -- 21 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: That's the 22 proposal. It's done. 23 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Why don't 24 you just have him pay the permit fee and review 25 this? Page 61 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 2 BRANDMEIER: Because he hasn't done the analysis 3 of the 210 and under (indiscernible), which is 4 the crux of the matter. 5 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Okay, so 6 that's what I'm trying to get at. So, he would 7 need an engineer to take this after and do a 210 8 and 100-year analysis? 9 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 10 BRANDMEIER: That is correct, for both the pre- 11 development condition, before he even put a 12 shovel in the ground and put the addition on, 13 look at what the flows are coming off the 14 property in that pre-existing or pre-development 15 condition and then show what it is after 16 development. 17 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: You can see in the 18 before and after, it was the same. So, are you 19 saying I need a permit to do nothing? Because I 20 can't grade the driveway or the patio. I still 21 have the elevation showing on the foundation. 22 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Have you 23 reviewed this? I know you, on procedural 24 grounds, you didn't review it, but at least when 25 you initially got it, have you reviewed it since Page 62 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 then? 2 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: I have not. 3 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: You made the 4 comment that to the naked eye, it looks like 5 there's 25 cubic yards of fill. What -- is that 6 based on the driveway or is that based on other 7 things? 8 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 9 BRANDMEIER: That's based on not just the 10 driveway, but the other additions around the 11 property. And when I went through the process 12 with the applicant last May of '23, just looking 13 at it logically, if you're raising that first 14 floor elevation of the garage and the small 15 addition, both 18 inches above the existing 16 property and you do a quick calculation, you can 17 come up with, easily 25 cubic yards. 18 You will arrive at in excess of 25 19 yards. The whole point of these permit 20 applications are not only to protect the 21 applicant from potential lawsuits from 22 neighboring property owners saying, "Hey, you've 23 added all this fill and now you're adversely 24 impacting me", it's to protect the neighboring 25 property owners from potential adverse impact. Page 63 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 To say, "Look, you're flowing more off 2 the property in the post-development condition 3 and you're not allowed to do that." And that's 4 the whole point behind these ordinances. And 5 there are three separate and distinct ordinances, 6 each with their own, perhaps, exceptions. The 7 fill permit has exceptions, 756-7 does not. 8 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: There's -- 9 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Can I make a 10 comment? 11 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Sure. 12 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: (indiscernible) 13 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Yes. 14 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: My interpretation 15 of the (indiscernible) when they say that you 16 can't have 25 cubic yards of the fill. That’s 17 talking about outside the planters, outside of 18 the top dressing. It's not related to 19 (indiscernible) because that wouldn't make any 20 sense. (indiscernible) 21 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Why wouldn't it 22 make any sense? Why wouldn't it make any -- why 23 are you saying it doesn't make any sense? 24 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Because when 25 you're talking about fill and grading, then that Page 64 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 would be like (indiscernible) 25 yards. That's 2 all (indiscernible) because the purpose of the 3 cover page, as he keeps saying is, to not change 4 topography, the flow to our neighbor. So, the 5 topography is the same, which is (indiscernible) 6 ended up. 25 yards of fill -- I couldn't have 7 put 25 yards in there. 8 Say I wanted to put a little hill in 9 front so that the, for some reason, a berm. 10 Like, where they had a berm, it's going to be two 11 feet high. It doesn't say the berm can only be 12 so much yards. The planters, it doesn't say, 13 "Well, the planters can be added all up can only 14 be 5 yards or 10 yards." So, it says 25 cubic 15 yards of fill, which, to me, is talking about 16 grading and topography of the yard itself so that 17 you don't change the slope and the direction of 18 flow, which is the purpose of the 19 (indiscernible). 20 So, you have to ask yourself, "Why do I 21 need a permit if I didn't do anything? When it's 22 done. The grass has all grown back." You can 23 see (indiscernible) and we gave the elevations 24 per request of the village, approved the 25 (indiscernible). Page 65 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 So, why would I need an application for 2 a permit? This is not an easy permit, and it 3 would take months and months (indiscernible). 4 And I wonder what (indiscernible) do. You're not 5 grading -- you're not changing the topography. 6 Planters are exempt, so is the driveway. So, 7 what would the planning committee look at? 8 An engineer is going to look at it and 9 say, "Well, we can't give you a plan to do 10 nothing." It just doesn't make any -- it's just 11 not logical. It's almost like they're trying to 12 get into the semantics of (indiscernible). What 13 is the purpose of the permit? He explained that 14 accurately. That we want to change the fill of 15 the water to (indiscernible) neighbors. The 16 neighbors (indiscernible). 17 We've got two neighbors 18 (indiscernible). We can't change the water 19 (indiscernible). You can probably 20 (indiscernible) and everyone's fine. Their yard 21 is not and (indiscernible) is the same to us. 22 And we did that on purpose. We had to. We 23 couldn't add slope (indiscernible) we thought we 24 needed to add slope for the house because it 25 would be this much higher. We would have had to Page 66 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 add a foot and a half of slope and how far could 2 they go, 5 feet, 10 feet? (indiscernible) But 3 now all that water runs (indiscernible). It just 4 couldn't be done. 5 So, that's why we put a little planting 6 in (indiscernible) change the topography of the 7 yard. That doesn't change the drainage. It 8 doesn't affect the drainage at all because it's 9 the same amount of square footage. So, it's 10 higher than (indiscernible). It's the same 11 amount of water. 12 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Mark 13 (indiscernible) 14 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: But actually, 15 you touched on what I was just going to -- here's 16 the photographs. And one of them, for example, 17 shows the west side of the house with the HVAC 18 equipment. And it's sitting on what looks to me, 19 an elevated section of I don't know if it's dirt 20 or gravel or whatever. It was stones along it 21 and some bushes along it, correct? 22 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Yes. 23 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: So, assuming 24 for the sake of argument, the rest of what's 25 shown in that photograph is the same grade, same Page 67 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 elevation as what was there before construction. 2 There's no question that you've added a 3-4-foot- 3 wide section of -- and a footer 18-inch-tall 4 section of dirt and gravel to put your HVAC 5 equipment on, right? 6 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Right. That 7 planter goes along the whole (indiscernible) 8 driveway, and it goes (indiscernible) 9 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Right. 10 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: It's for looks. 11 But I needed it to make the transition. So, I 12 couldn't grade them. If I didn't have the 13 boulders there in the plan, I would have had to 14 create some kind of slope from the driveway 15 toward the neighbor's yard. That would not have 16 passed the plan approval. 17 It could not be done. Because if we 18 pushed the water into the neighbor's yard, that's 19 exactly the reason we got the permit 20 (indiscernible). 21 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: But by that 22 logic, you could have raised your entire yard 18 23 inches. 24 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: No, I couldn’t. 25 That would be 18 inches higher than Page 68 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 (indiscernible) 2 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Well, but you 3 are, for three feet outside your house. Correct? 4 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: That's not logical 5 because the front yard is three feet higher than 6 the backyard. The elevation -- the existing 7 driveway is two feet -- almost two feet higher 8 (indiscernible) the west yard. It adds slope on 9 it. But the slope started right there on the 10 driveway (indiscernible), it sloped down 11 (indiscernible). 12 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: You made -- 13 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: The rest of the 14 yard, the front yard is exactly (indiscernible) 15 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I don't know 16 whether you're right about whether you could 17 grade that or not, I have no idea, to prevent 18 water -- to successfully grade it to prevent 19 water from going to your neighbors. But you have 20 definitely added fill around your house, say 18 21 inches or whatever it is. 22 And created planters, created a 23 substrate for the HVAC equipment, added fill to 24 put your driveway on top of so that it would come 25 up even with the garage. And your argument is, Page 69 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 "Well, but everything else in the yard is at the 2 original grade. So, it's fine." Right? 3 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Well, the code 4 says in 272-10 that there's exemptions. Why were 5 they exemptions to the driveway (indiscernible) 6 if there wasn't some logic to it? The exceptions 7 are clear, and you can't say they're not. 8 (indiscernible) 9 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: You removed 10 the driveway that was originally there, correct? 11 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: We just graveled 12 it. 13 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: So, when I 14 read it, it says the driveway is exempt. To me, 15 that assumes you're not disturbing the driveway 16 as it existed when you started the project. It 17 doesn't mean you can remove the driveway, put 18 back a driveway and then say, "I didn't disturb 19 the driveway." 20 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: No, it does say 21 you can take out the driveway and that's not a 22 code requirement to take it out (indiscernible). 23 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I don't 24 disagree with that, but it doesn't -- what I 25 don't -- what I do disagree with is the argument Page 70 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 that I can remove a driveway, put in, 2 hypothetically, six feet of fill and raise the 3 driveway up six feet, put a driveway on top of 4 it, none of that fill counts because it's a 5 driveway. 6 As opposed to what Mr. Brandmeier has 7 said is, "We give you an exemption for a 8 driveway. The gravel substrate, cement and 9 that's not counted as fill because that's the 10 driveway." 11 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Right, but 12 if you expand it -- 13 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: But if you 14 raise the driveway a foot, six feet, whatever, 15 whatever reason you want to do it, everything 16 underneath the driveway construction. It wasn't 17 necessary to create a -- 18 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Or it can 19 make it wider, right? 20 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: It can make 21 it wider, yeah, (indiscernible) 22 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: It says 23 specifically that, "-- or and been removed, there 24 is no driveway (indiscernible) concrete patios or 25 driveways permitted under (indiscernible) or fill Page 71 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 (indiscernible) various and soil after they had 2 been removed, are exempt from the filling 3 (indiscernible)." Section 217.10B. 4 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: If, for the 5 sake of argument, if we assume Mr. Brandmeier is 6 right, that the fill you had to add underneath 7 the new driveway to get it up to the grade of the 8 garage, not counting the cement, the gravel 9 itself, is not exempted. Let's assume, for the 10 sake of argument, (indiscernible) that's not 11 exempted. Is there 25 yards of fill underneath 12 that driveway? 13 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Well, I don’t 14 know. I can -- 15 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: You don't 16 know? 17 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: I didn't add it 18 up. 19 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Okay. 20 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: But the thing is, 21 the original permit at 2,100 feet land disturbing 22 activity, which was under the 4,000 -- 23 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I'm just 24 talking about fill now. I'm not talking about 25 land disturbing. Page 72 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Okay, but you're 2 really just talking about 4,000 feet, not cubic 3 yards. Because if you look at 217-10E, Minor 4 Grading, this only applies to the yard. It 5 doesn't apply to the planters or even a house. 6 Because otherwise, none of the other requirements 7 or exemptions would make any sense. 8 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Do you have 9 an opinion, Mr. Brandmeier, on whether or not the 10 fill under the driveway constitutes 25 square 11 yards, by itself? 12 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 13 BRANDMEIER: I'm doing the calculation in my head 14 right now. About 40 feet long and 20 feet wide 15 is 800 square feet. You probably had to add a 16 foot of fill before you got to stone and 17 concrete. So, that's 800 cubic feet divided by 18 27, we'll just call it 30, you're at about 30 19 yards, 35 yards, just under the driveway. 20 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: And that 21 doesn't count anything around the house? 22 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 23 BRANDMEIER: Correct. And that's just a quick 24 and dirty calculation of going 40 by 20 by one 25 foot worth of fill because you've got -- the Page 73 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 applicant has acknowledged both the 18 inches in 2 difference between the first-floor elevation at 3 the existing house and what was adjacent to it. 4 So, if it's 18 inches, you're going to 5 want to put a foot of fill to get to that garage 6 to get to roughly eight inches beneath the garage 7 slab and then add four inches of stone and four 8 inches of concrete. That puts you within where 9 you need to be, so I could rough and dirty calc 10 of 40 by 20 by 1 divided by 27, roughly 35 11 (indiscernible) 12 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: You're looking at 13 the 25 cubic yards underneath the driveway, but 14 that -- those exceptions to the driveway got 15 cleared and the permit for the fill is 4,000 16 square feet. It has nothing to do with yardage. 17 4,000 square feet of disturbed area when you're 18 changing the topography. You can't change the 19 topography of the driveway. 20 It's going toward the street and his 21 calculations are way off anyway because it is 22 (indiscernible) where it was (indiscernible). 23 The elevations at the house, where it started 24 before are 680. If you look at it right now, 25 it's probably 685 or something. It's like 681 Page 74 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 (indiscernible). It's just not -- you know, it 2 slopes. 3 But the grading per 272-10E is not 4 related to any of the other exemptions. It's 5 grading that changes. It says it had to change 6 the flow of water and not to change the flow from 7 one place to the next. I can't add 25 yards and 8 then, all of a sudden, push the water to the 9 neighbor's yard. But I can add 25 yards if I've 10 got a low spot in my yard, and I keep the 11 topography the same. 12 So, that's what that exemption is for. 13 It's trying to make it easy to landscape property 14 at a new house. I mean, that's what it's trying 15 to do. (indiscernible) I offered to pay the 16 permit fee if that was the end of it. No, I need 17 a $5,000 (indiscernible) bond. 5, 10 and 100- 18 year drainage plans, engineered drawings, plan 19 review, permits, all this stuff. And to do what? 20 It's done and I haven't changed the topography of 21 the yard, which is affecting the drainage 22 (indiscernible) 23 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 24 BRANDMEIER: Might I add a few things? 25 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Yeah. Page 75 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 2 BRANDMEIER: As I noted in my memo, 3 (indiscernible) what are the legal issues here? 4 What are the facts (indiscernible)? And I think 5 this board has done a nice job of trying to get 6 at the facts (indiscernible). I believe the 7 issues rolled out to which of the three permits 8 apply, erosion control, grading and drainage and 9 then fill. 10 Now when we look at the ones that have 11 been submitted and we look at the evidence that 12 has been presented here this evening, you have to 13 acknowledge that there's at least 4,000-5,000 14 square feet of disturbed area under the 15 definition. So, under Chapter 756-7E, it clearly 16 states that if you disturb more than 4,000 square 17 feet, you are required to do the 210 and 100-year 18 (indiscernible) and post-development flow 19 analysis. It's that simple. He's acknowledged 20 4,000-5,000 square feet, whether it's 12,000, 21 8,000, 4,000 or 5,000, he's over 4,000, it 22 applies. 23 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: (indiscernible) 24 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 25 BRANDMEIER: And you -- just -- the exceptions Page 76 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 within Chapter 272 do not apply to 756. If they 2 were intended to apply, they'd either be 3 incorporated by reference, or they would be 4 written in there intentionally. They have not 5 been for a very good reason. Because in the 6 particular case of this applicant, the driveway, 7 if I’m not mistaken, was moved. 8 So, that's a disturbed area. You're 9 removing the driveway from one location and 10 putting it in a different location. So, if we 11 get at the heart of the matter, 756-7E does apply 12 to this applicant and the project that was 13 undertaken. 14 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: So, if we 15 agree with you on that point, does that make the 16 other points moot because then, he has to get the 17 same plan under the other permits? 18 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 19 BRANDMEIER: It would identify how much fill is 20 there and -- 21 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Or that it 22 (indiscernible) 23 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 24 BRANDMEIER: -- then you address the grading 25 because 272 does say you have to do grading and Page 77 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 drainage if you place more than 25 cubic yards of 2 fill. So, yes, it would pretty much address what 3 272 is calling for, but 272 is a separate permit. 4 So, you can get into the meat of, is the 5 driveway, regardless of how much fill is 6 underneath that, exempt under this part of the 7 code? 8 Is the patio completely exempt under 9 the code? Are the planters, regardless of how 10 much fill is there, exempted under the code? But 11 I think the board has to look at the three 12 separate and distinct codes that apply in this 13 particular case, 285, which is the erosion 14 control, 756-7E, which is the grading and 15 drainage under the building code, and then 272, 16 which is the fill permit. 17 And as I note in the memo, 272 is hard 18 to determine at this juncture because frankly, 19 there's this disagreement between the applicant 20 and the Village of, is that exception, the 21 exemptions within 272-10, for patios, driveways, 22 sidewalks, whatever the case might be, planters? 23 You exclude all of it or you exclude what a 24 rational applicant would -- and I'm speaking for 25 the sake of that way. Page 78 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 When a rational person would look at in 2 terms of four inches of concrete or asphalt and 3 four inches of substrate or stone to support that 4 surface, okay, and then everything underneath 5 that is fill. And that's for the board to 6 determine. Of whether everything is exempted or 7 not. 8 And if it is, we march along saying, 9 "Okay, then we have this direction from the board 10 of appeals saying that, in your opinion, 11 everything underneath the driveway, regardless of 12 how much fill is there, is exempted", and then we 13 know how to apply these applications moving 14 forward into the future. 15 But that doesn't eliminate the fact 16 that, under 756-7, you've still disturbed the 17 area, which still requires you to evaluate 18 whether that disturbance is going to adversely 19 impact a neighboring property owner by 20 (indiscernible). 21 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Do you 22 believe the top dressing is any kind of an 23 exception to the land disturbance under 756? 24 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 25 BRANDMEIER: Top dressing -- no, you cannot use Page 79 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 the exceptions under that to apply to 756, but -- 2 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: So, even if 3 we -- let me just finish. 4 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 5 BRANDMEIER: Yeah. 6 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: So, even if 7 we assume what I think I heard the applicant 8 saying is that what he did with the rest of the 9 yard was essentially top dressing. It's your 10 position that it doesn't matter whether it's top 11 dressing or not, because that exception doesn't 12 exist at 756, it's still 4,000 square feet of 13 land disturbing activity. 14 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 15 BRANDMEIER: That is correct. And that disturbed 16 area, when you look at the pictures and if you 17 drove past the site at any point in time during 18 construction, particularly last October, November 19 or December, you'd see that there was a large 20 area that was disturbed. And the pictures 21 clearly show and the image that I created for the 22 benefit of the applicant and for the benefit of 23 the board, shows what was documented in the 24 pictures, the disturbed area in the pictures. 25 Where the placement and stockpiling of Page 80 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 the soils on top of the land surface is a 2 disturbed area, while you were driving around and 3 disturbing the area. And then the question 4 becomes, "Okay, if you (indiscernible) 756-7, do 5 you now trigger Chapter 285 in the erosion 6 control permit by exceeding 8,000 square feet or 7 any one of the other requirements within the 8 ordinance (indiscernible)?" 9 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Is erosion 10 control moot at this point? 11 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 12 BRANDMEIER: It is moot because he did obtain the 13 -- yes, he did file that and he provided the fee. 14 We had an erosion control plan. So, the real 15 issue is now, is this 756-7 applicable to this 16 applicant and is Chapter 272 applicable to this 17 applicant and the project that was undertaken? 18 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: And 285 19 defines, "land disturbing construction activity". 20 But that's not applicable, that definition, to 21 756-7E? Is that your position? 22 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 23 BRANDMEIER: We did not have that cross- 24 referenced in there and that's why we obtained 25 that definition from the attorney and that's when Page 81 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 Mr. Botcher rendered his opinion on December 2 21st. 3 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Your position 4 is, you're using that definition in 756, in the 5 absence of a different one in 756? 6 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 7 BRANDMEIER: Yeah, what was provided to us by the 8 attorney, yes. 9 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: 756 doesn't 10 have a definition for "land disturbing activity", 11 correct? 12 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 13 BRANDMEIER: It didn’t have -- 14 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: In and of 15 itself? 16 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 17 BRANDMEIER: I don't believe that it does. I'd 18 have to check the building code itself. 756-7 19 likely does not, but I have not looked at the 20 entirety of the building code. 21 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: So, you've 22 looked elsewhere in the code for that definition, 23 plus the state statutes? 24 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 25 BRANDMEIER: State statutes. Page 82 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: So -- 2 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: (indiscernible) 3 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: (indiscernible) 4 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: Again, 5 you referred to me and I just want to be very 6 clear, I provided three definitions. I didn't 7 apply them to this situation. I wasn't even 8 aware of the situation. So, that was applied by 9 staff. That's my recollection. 10 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 11 BRANDMEIER: My apologies. 12 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: So, on 13 272 -- so 285 is moot. We don't have to deal 14 with 282. 15 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: 5. 16 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: 272, the 17 fill ordinance, it's been described as being 18 about drainage and it tends to address drainage. 19 But I see this as also addressing protection of 20 roads and we want to know the proposed traffic 21 routes for hauling fill, location of the filling 22 operations. I see 285 as addressing drainage. 23 But I guess my question is, if we try to identify 24 the purpose of 272, isn't it broader than simply 25 drainage? Page 83 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 2 BRANDMEIER: Yes. 3 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: So, the 4 argument that it is not affecting drainage may be 5 immaterial because if he's hauling 25 yards of 6 fill, this ordinance is about ensuring that it's 7 high-quality fill and that the roads are 8 protected and that they're not going to be 9 hauling this fill in a way that's going to be a 10 nuisance to the neighbors. Isn't that what 272 11 is about? 12 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 13 BRANDMEIER: Yes. 14 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: In addition 15 to drainage? 16 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 17 BRANDMEIER: Yes. 18 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: It does 19 speak to obstructing water courses, and it does 20 address some drainage issues. 21 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Well, if you 22 look at 272-2G, it talks about the plan. It 23 describes the terrain and the grading, etc., so 24 there's a (indiscernible) -- 25 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: Sure. Page 84 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: -- that 2 aspect of it. I agree with you that there are 3 other aspects, as well. It's much broader than 4 just drainage. (indiscernible) 5 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Can I make a 6 comment? 7 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: I'm 8 done. 9 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Can I address the 10 attorney? 11 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Sure. Well, 12 you can address his arguments. 13 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: So, your attorney, 14 obviously, quote 256-7, and had certain 15 activities over 4,000 feet, meaning, that permit 16 application of 272. The subheading of "Grading" 17 and then description land disturbing activity 18 over 4,000 feet. That has nothing to do with 19 cubic yards. Nobody's adding up yardage. 20 It's 4,000 square feet for the purpose 21 of drainage control so it doesn't affect the 22 topography of the yard. (indiscernible) 23 activity, that point relates to grading. Nothing 24 else. And the heading in the application says, 25 "Grading activities exceeding 4,000 square feet". Page 85 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 It doesn't say 25 cubic yards, it says 4,000 2 square feet. And in the exemptions of 272.10, 3 each exemption, top dressing, patios and 4 driveways (indiscernible), nothing has cubic 5 yards listed. 6 It doesn't say you can only put five 7 cubic yards of top dressing. They think you're 8 going to cover the whole yard. Patios and 9 driveways, they don't know how big the yard is or 10 the driveway and they're not saying so many cubic 11 yards (indiscernible). It's exempt. When it's 12 exempt, it means there's no permit required, 13 period. 14 So, minor grading only applies to the 15 yard itself or it could have kept the drainage, 16 and it says clearly, "So it doesn't pitch toward 17 the residential structure." It spells it out. 18 The intent of this exemption is (indiscernible) 19 minor grading of construction of planting beds, 20 flower gardens, (indiscernible) and similar 21 activities which do not -- 22 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I'm sorry. 23 Where are you reading from? I'm sorry. 24 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: (indiscernible) 25 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Okay, I got Page 86 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 it. Okay, got it. Got it. 2 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: If we find 3 that those exemptions don't apply to the 4,000 4 square feet, would you concede that 4,000 square 5 feet is disturbed? Are you relying on the -- 6 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: It's disturbed, 7 but that's why we got a building permit. It has 8 nothing to do with disturbed. If you -- I asked 9 the attorney the question because -- 10 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: He's not here 11 to answer questions for you. I'm sorry. 12 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: (indiscernible) 13 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: You can make 14 arguments, but -- 15 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: It's a legal 16 opinion. 17 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: You can make 18 your arguments, but -- 19 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Well, my 20 understanding is 756-7E is at issue, right? It's 21 not moot. 22 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Well, that's 23 really the whole argument. 24 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Right, and 25 so this says, "For applications for land Page 87 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 disturbing activities requiring a permit that 2 affects the surface area of 4,000 square feet or 3 more." And my question is, if we determine that 4 we don't think the exemptions are applicable, 5 would you agree that 4,000 square feet are 6 disturbed? 7 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Sure. 8 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Okay. 9 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Isn't that why I 10 got the erosion permit, because I'm not grading, 11 I'm disturbing, and this is why I got the erosion 12 permit. And that's an 8,000 foot 13 (indiscernible). If it was -- otherwise, then 14 we'd have to get two permits for everything. 15 You'd have to get a grading permit when you're 16 not grading. This is the whole argument. But if 17 you look at the thing you're looking at, 256-7. 18 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: 756-7, 19 yeah. 20 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: 756-7. If you 21 look at the top where the subheading is, 22 "Grading", everything below that is relative to 23 grading. It has nothing to do with anything 24 else. Everything in that subcategory. So, when 25 they say, "land disturbing activities", it's Page 88 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 related to grading. It's not really -- 2 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Well, it 3 just says you have to apply for a drainage permit 4 if you disturb it. It doesn't make an assumption 5 one way or the other. 6 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Yeah 7 (indiscernible). Well, okay, this is where the 8 ambiguity is. This is my -- in their defense. 9 I'm saying it's a little ambiguous because they 10 picked up on that and they wrote the whole code 11 requirement to me based on just land disturbing 12 activity. And there's no logic in that because 13 I'm not going to grade anything. The project is 14 already finished. So, if you said I needed a 15 grading permit -- 16 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Well, if you 17 hadn't finished the project without the permit, 18 you might have had to grade something. Right? 19 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: No, I couldn't 20 grade anything. It was all recently graded. The 21 front yard grade is fine, and the backyard is too 22 close to the neighbors. I can't change the 23 grading. 24 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Well, you 25 wouldn't have been able to put any of the dirt Page 89 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 you pushed up around the house, right? 2 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: No, there's no 3 proof required for that. It's in the exemptions. 4 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I -- 5 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: I don't think I 6 understand your question (indiscernible) 7 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: So, I 8 want to go back to something that was said some 9 time (indiscernible). It's my understanding that 10 there was some fill placed to raise up some of 11 the construction that was done. So, it's under 12 new construction at this point. Do you consider 13 that to be fill? Dirt that was added that is now 14 underneath a structure. 15 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: No, they 16 didn't add dirt under a structure. 17 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: I 18 thought they added under the addition. 19 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: No, they 20 excavated under the addition. That's where the 21 big pile of dirt came from. But -- right? Am I 22 wrong? 23 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: There 24 wasn't any dirt added under -- 25 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: No, we took it Page 90 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 out. 2 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 3 BRANDMEIER: It was -- you had the existing house 4 and again, if the board so (indiscernible) I can 5 bring it up on GIS and show the differences. But 6 there's an existing house to which there was an 7 addition, plus the garage. And underneath that 8 addition and garage, that's the area that was 9 excavated. 10 There was no fill, per se, placed 11 underneath that, other than stone for the 12 concrete slab for the addition if you do a full 13 basement addition. But then that fill was placed 14 around in the parcel while construction was 15 ongoing. And then the placement of that fill is 16 really what's at dispute. Where was it placed 17 and do the exceptions fall (indiscernible)? 18 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Some of it 19 was trucked off-site. Some of it was pushed 20 around the house and treated the planters that 21 are around the house and treated the base for the 22 driveway that was raised up. 23 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 24 BRANDMEIER: That is correct. 25 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: No, we couldn't Page 91 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 use the clay. We had to go (indiscernible). So, 2 I mean, maybe that's the issue. 3 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: It doesn't 4 matter to me whether it's new dirt or old dirt. 5 I don't care. 6 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Well, this 7 (indiscernible) 8 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: It makes a 9 difference to you in constructing it, but for 10 purposes of how much fill you used, it's fill, 11 whether it's new fill or old fill or clay or 12 dirt. But no, there was no fill under the 13 structure. 14 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Well, underneath 15 (indiscernible) 16 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: No, it's just 17 gravel. But you didn't throw dirt into the hole 18 after you dug the hole. 19 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: There's gravel in 20 my driveway. In fact, there's (indiscernible) 21 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Right, but 22 there's dirt under the gravel. 23 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: (indiscernible) 24 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Yeah. 25 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: All right. Page 92 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 Adam? 2 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: What? 3 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: See, if Mark 4 wants to -- still confused as to what we are 5 determining? 6 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: I have a 7 better idea. I mean, I would almost like a post- 8 hearing briefing on this. But if someone wants 9 to make the motion, I'll entertain it. I mean, I 10 don't have a choice. I -- 11 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I wanted to 12 ask Mr. Brandmeier one last question to respond 13 to the applicant. He was essentially saying that 14 there's no point in having an erosion permit and 15 a permit under 756 because they do the same 16 thing. I'm oversimplifying. But I mean, what is 17 the distinction between the two in terms of 18 purchase of the policy or the reasoning behind 19 this? 20 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 21 BRANDMEIER: Well, the distinction really is in 22 the description itself. So, (indiscernible) 23 permit identifies what you're going to do to 24 prevent sediment from floating off site during 25 construction, okay. And so, that's why we have Page 93 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 separate code requirements. For some reason, and 2 again, it predates me, that one was written with 3 an 8,000 square foot minimum disturbed area. 4 I don't know why, but that predates me 5 why it was written as that. It might have been a 6 DNR model ordinance that 8,000 square feet of 7 disturbed area would trigger, amongst other 8 things, placement of 600 linear feet by 9 excavating 800 cubic yards, et cetera. Those all 10 trigger the need for an erosion control permit. 11 So, whether it's silk socks, core logs, 12 which are coconut fiber logs, an erosion control 13 fence around the property, the whole purpose 14 behind that is to say, "Hey, this is how I'm 15 going to protect sediment from running off site 16 during my construction activities." 17 The grading and drainage plan is a 18 completely different animal. And that 4,000 19 square feet trigger was written during my tenure 20 here, as I noted, and I recommended this be done 21 because I had done it in the private sector many 22 times. And the board adopted that 4,000 square 23 foot trigger to say, okay, if you're going to 24 build something. 25 Let's just say, hypothetically, a new Page 94 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 principal home and you've got a virgin lot, 2 you're putting up a new principal home, you've 3 got to identify how that construction is going to 4 impact the neighboring property owners because of 5 the residential infill that we have in a 6 completely built out community. And so, therein 7 lies the distinction between the two. 8 You can get into the discussion of, 9 "Well, shouldn't they match? Shouldn't you do 10 4,000 and 4,000 or 8,000 and 8,000?" Certainly, 11 that's an agreement, but an argument that could 12 be made, but that's not the way the code is 13 defined. So, they have separate and distinct 14 purposes. One is to say, "Hey, you're disturbing 15 more than 4,000 square feet of land", or if you 16 need a fill permit, you have to undertake this 17 activity to show that you're not going to 18 adversely affect the neighboring property owner. 19 Do the analysis with an engineer. The 20 8,000 square feet or 600 feet of pipe or 800 21 cubic yards says, "What are you going to do to 22 control the runoff from your site while you're 23 doing this project?" Theoretically, you may not 24 begin the requirement for 756-7. You might be 25 stripping the entire property and keeping it a Page 95 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 virgin property, but you're affecting more than 2 8,000 square feet. 3 You may not need that permit under 756- 4 7, but you could be stripping off 800 cubic yards 5 and affecting more than 8,000 square feet. So, 6 that would kick in the requirement for an erosion 7 control plan. Tell us what you're going to do to 8 make sure that you do not have sediment in -- 9 from a DNR company perspective, you'll look at 10 phosphorous in the sediment and bacteria flowing 11 off site from a parcel. 12 And what are you going to do to restore 13 that area after you've done with that particular 14 application, that activity? And therein lies the 15 distinction between the two. So, they're 16 separate and distinct and that's why I laid it 17 out in my memo when I said all three are separate 18 and distinct. 19 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Now is it 20 25 square feet or cubic? 21 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 22 BRANDMEIER: Cubic. 23 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: And that’s 24 in 272? 25 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT Page 96 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 BRANDMEIER: That is correct. 2 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: What 3 section? 4 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 5 BRANDMEIER: E. 6 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: E? 7 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 8 BRANDMEIER: Well, and B. So, we provided an 9 exception. When I arrived at the Village, there 10 were no exceptions, and I worked with the Village 11 attorney and made the call where we adopted -- 12 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: I see. 13 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 14 BRANDMEIER: -- certain exceptions and one of 15 them was 25 cubic yards. 16 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: So, you're 17 making the exception into a requirement, 18 essentially? 19 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 20 BRANDMEIER: Yes. 21 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: It's a de 22 minimis exception and you're saying if it's above 23 that, then that means -- 24 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: The exception 25 doesn't apply and therefore, you have to have a Page 97 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 permit. 2 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 3 BRANDMEIER: Yes. 4 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: But it's 5 not an affirmative requirement? 6 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 7 BRANDMEIER: No. 8 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: There's a 9 requirement, 272-1A. 10 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 11 BRANDMEIER: 1A says if you place -- 12 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Any fill -- 13 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 14 BRANDMEIER: -- any fill, you need a permit. 15 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Got it. 16 Okay. Thank you. 17 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 18 BRANDMEIER: And then, you'll get exception -- 19 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: I see that 20 now, yes. 21 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 22 BRANDMEIER: -- if it's less than 25 cubic yards. 23 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Understood. 24 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 25 BRANDMEIER: And then it's for this board to Page 98 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 decide whether that exception includes a greater 2 amount to fill underneath the driveway, the 3 sidewalk, the patio, planters, et cetera. That 4 is the applicant's argument. And that's what I 5 note in my memo. That's really -- if the board 6 says, "We agree with the applicant", we move 7 forward with that definition. 8 If the board says, "No, you can't do 9 that", you'll get a reasonable amount, which 10 would be four inches of concrete, four inches of 11 stone and anything beneath that is fill because 12 the intent never was to add 8 feet or 6 feet, as 13 you noted, of fill to get to the elevation that 14 you need in order to put in the driveway, or the 15 sidewalk or the patio or whatever it might be, or 16 the planter. 17 That's for the board to determine. I 18 don't think anything's in dispute now based on 19 what was agreed to by the applicant that 4,000 or 20 8,000 square feet was disturbed. So, 756-7 seems 21 to certainly apply. 22 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: He's made an 23 argument about the interplay of these sections. 24 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 25 BRANDMEIER: Yes. Page 99 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: A legal 2 argument. I'm not talking about a factual 3 argument, but a legal argument -- 4 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 5 BRANDMEIER: That's correct. 6 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: -- about why 7 they don't apply but -- 8 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 9 BRANDMEIER: Yes. That's correct. 10 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Can I respond? 11 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Sure. 12 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: Before 13 we leave it though, I mean, that distinguishes 14 756 from 272. What about (indiscernible)? 15 (indiscernible) said that was moot, right? So, 16 it's a 285, but you addressed two, and I'm 17 wondering about the third. 18 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 19 BRANDMEIER: That is -- go ahead. I'm sorry. 20 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: And his 21 argument is, "Hey, if I get one of these, I'm 22 really doing all three, aren't I?" And I think 23 actually the one that hasn't been talked about is 24 272. 25 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT Page 100 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 BRANDMEIER: Yes. 2 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: So, the 3 fill ordinance. Why doesn't that overlap with 4 the building permit ordinance? 5 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 6 BRANDMEIER: It can, and it does. But again, 7 you've got the disagreement between the Village 8 and the applicant over whether the exemptions in 9 272-10 apply to everything underneath the 10 driveway, everything underneath the planters, 11 everything underneath the patio. And even if it 12 were to apply, what is the amount of fill that 13 has been added beyond that footprint of those 14 three areas? 15 And the only way to know that for sure 16 is if the drawing, which is required by 756-7, 17 will show, okay, these are the grades. Here was 18 the existing, here is the proposed. You'll be 19 able to calculate what the difference is. Even 20 if you were to exempt everything within the 21 footprint of driveways, patios and planters. We 22 would be able to determine whether that threshold 23 that de minimis exception, for instance, of 25 24 cubic yards, applies or does not apply. 25 And therein lies the three separate and Page 101 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 distinct arenas that how they could apply in 2 mind, and I think the 756-7 probably was adopted 3 16-17 years ago. The fill ordinance has been in 4 existence predating me, probably 20-25 years, and 5 the erosion control ordinance predates me. 6 Now, as Attorney Larson noted, you can 7 see in 756-7, that if a fill permit is needed, 8 the requirements of 756-7 are then triggered. 9 Because it says, "For all circumstances where a 10 fill permit is required, you have to do it." 11 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: You're just 12 sitting here today saying you're not definitively 13 certain that a fill permit is required because 14 you're not certain whether, number one, what the 15 answer to the interpretation question is, and 16 number two, whether there's 25 yards of fill? 17 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 18 BRANDMEIER: That is correct. But 756-7 19 certainly seems to apply. And if you do that, 20 creating a drainage analysis, that helps the 21 applicant as it relates to 272. 272 is just an 22 additional permitting process where you will be 23 doing this regardless with 756-7. 24 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: At this 25 point, are what the fill permit requires is moot Page 102 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 as well because, coupled with the plan for 2 trucking and routes and et cetera, et cetera, and 3 essentially that's all done now? 4 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 5 BRANDMEIER: It's already been done, but there is 6 a requirement that you provide a 21-day notice 7 requirement to the surrounding property owners 8 because it gives them an opportunity to comment 9 on the application. So, what's happened here is 10 that the issue has been pushed down the road and 11 (indiscernible) property owners within 500 feet 12 of not being given that opportunity to comment. 13 Well, certainly (indiscernible) on this 14 board might say, "Okay, we agree with the 15 applicant. Let's figure out whether, with the 16 exception argument, well, let's figure out 17 whether 25 cubic yards applies or is there or not 18 beyond the footprint." And if the board so does 19 decide that, like they did waive the 30-day 20 requirement, perhaps, I may be speaking out of 21 turn, they waived the requirement for the 21-day 22 notice period as well. 23 Because, as you know, it ends up being 24 almost a moot point because the project, from a 25 grading perspective, appears to be done other Page 103 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 than the request that the applicant does expand 2 the driveway. 3 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Well, it's 4 done from a fill perspective. But if you -- 5 let's assume -- 6 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 7 BRANDMEIER: Yes. 8 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Assuming we 9 agree with you completely, just for the sake of 10 argument. And he says, "Okay, fine. I'll pay 11 the fees for the permit. I'll hire the guy. 12 I'll give you the plans." He gives you the plans 13 and you look at the plans and say, "We don’t like 14 the way it's set up for drainage." As-built for 15 drainage. 16 You could, theoretically then, say, 17 "No, you've got to, somehow, re-grade around the 18 house or around the driveway to push the drainage 19 towards Dean Road or something else. 20 Theoretically, that can happen? 21 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 22 BRANDMEIER: Theoretically, yes. That is 23 correct. Yes. We've had situations -- 24 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: And at some 25 point, the neighbors might have a chance to talk Page 104 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 about that. 2 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Comment on 3 it. 4 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: (indiscernible) 5 These guys did a good job of explaining the 6 purpose of permits, drainage, (indiscernible), et 7 cetera. So, what's the aversion to a permit? 8 It's not accurate that the erosion control permit 9 covers everything because filling and grading is 10 just filling and grading. It needed a permit to 11 put gravel underneath the driveway, a filling and 12 grading permit. 13 First of all, you don't need a permit 14 for the driveway, so (indiscernible) and what 15 would they be looking at, cubic yards, drainage? 16 The drainage permit does not talk about cubic 17 yards, it talks about topography. 18 (indiscernible) or if you had a 10,000-foot lot 19 or a 50,000-foot lot, it's the topography that's 20 different. That's the reason for the berm. 21 It's to hold the water. You want to 22 maintain where it's supposed to go. You want it 23 to go over (indiscernible). 272-10 exemptions E, 24 Minor Grading. You read the entire section that 25 talks about the filling activities of 25 yards or Page 105 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 less, minor grading. That's grading. That's not 2 fill underneath the driveway, that's not 3 planters, that's not top dressing, it's not 4 berms, it's not trench fill, it's minor grading. 5 It has its own definition. It's the 6 only thing that has a cubic yard detection. Top 7 dressing could be 25 yards, easy. That's not -- 8 it's exempt. Why? Because as long as you don't 9 change the grading, you're not grading the fill. 10 And then (indiscernible) permit is designed to 11 mitigate problems (indiscernible), just like it 12 said. 7,000 yards of something, somebody brought 13 it in there. 14 They changed the whole grade of the 15 lot. There's no permits required so they pushed 16 it all to the neighbor, everybody's in lawsuits. 17 I can't believe (indiscernible). But what is the 18 reason for the permit at this site? Let's get 19 down to the nitty gritty. Why would you want the 20 grading and fill permit, and then you start 21 talking about the planters? 22 If you added up all the square footage 23 -- now, let's not talk about cubic yards because 24 cubic yards is minor grading on the lot. You add 25 up the square footage of the planters Page 106 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 (indiscernible), it's not even 2,000 feet. The 2 topography is only 1,200 feet, that is 600-foot 3 (indiscernible). The literal area he said by the 4 house is two feet wide by 50. That's 100 feet. 5 You're just not getting anywhere near this 4,000 6 feet, even if you included that. 7 But what would be the purpose of a 8 grading permit by the driveway? Before you put 9 it in, it has to go from the road to the house, 10 the driveway. That's it. How else are you going 11 to do it? It's going to end up at the road. 12 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: You lost me 13 on one point. Why isn't the dirt that you pushed 14 around the house to create the planters minor 15 grading? Why isn't that considered minor 16 grading, in your mind? 17 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Because if you 18 look at where this says, "minor grading", it's so 19 that it doesn't affect the direction of the 20 water. That's the yard. Right against the 21 house, that doesn't affect any neighbors. That's 22 why they say that's customary, you build it up. 23 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: What if -- I 24 understand that argument. What if Mr. Brandmeier 25 disagrees? What is Mr. Brandmeier or the Village Page 107 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 of Fox Point, to be (indiscernible) about it -- 2 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Well, I really -- 3 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: -- feels that 4 the planters have affected the grading or the 5 flow and the drainage. I don't know if he feels 6 that way or not. He may look at your plans and 7 say, "Bingo. They're fine." I don't know. But 8 what if he thinks, before you had built this, 9 before the dirt was pushed up, you've got 18 10 inches, I'll just use that number, 18 inches of 11 foundation above grade around parts of this 12 house. 13 And if you had then come in and agreed 14 with him, we got to apply for a permit, you did 15 the work and he says, "I don't want you to grade 16 around that. I don't want you to raise dirt 17 around that house. I think that's going to 18 create problems, like you said, for the neighbors 19 because it's going to push water into the 20 neighborhoods. I want you to leave the 18 inches 21 of foundation exposed and paint it." 22 I'm just -- I don't know what he's 23 going to say. But you didn't give him the chance 24 to say that. Now, you're coming in and saying, 25 "These planters don't affect the topography, they Page 108 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 don't affect water." The Village of Fox Point 2 might disagree. I don't know. 3 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Well, there's 4 exemptions and to say that the 272 exemptions 5 don’t apply to the permit application for 272, 6 doesn't make any sense. If I want to get this 7 272 permit, I use 756-7. That is the application 8 for a permit which requires plan review and 9 everything else for this code. So, how many can 10 say that that application for the permit isn't 11 relative to the exemptions in this permit? 12 It's not a code, 272, it is the 13 application for the code. And I didn't add dirt 14 around the house, I just -- I took out all the 15 bushes and I pushed it around where it was. I 16 can't add any dirt because -- and that's the old 17 house. The only place I left -- and I left the 18 18 inches exposed on the garage, where it faces 19 west. The rest of the house, it was pretty much 20 left. It's just where it faces the west. 21 So, that's where you can see the 18 22 inches and you could see in the pictures 23 (indiscernible). It's the garage. The house is 24 the way it was. All four sides -- all three 25 sides of the house (indiscernible). Page 109 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: If I'm right, 2 can I add a note here? 3 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: (indiscernible) 4 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 5 BRANDMEIER: When you look at 756-7, and I think 6 what's being lost in all of this is the argument 7 of disturbed area, not disturbed area, fill, not 8 fill, what applies, what doesn't apply. When you 9 look at 756-7 the point of that is to look at 10 pervious and impervious surfaces. I don't think 11 there's any dispute here that additional 12 impervious area was added, particularly when you 13 put on an addition, you expand the driveway, put 14 in a patio, put in a sidewalk, things that did 15 not exist before. 16 And so, one could reasonably say, 17 theoretically, hypothetically, that it's putting 18 at the same elevation that existed before. 19 There's no change in grading. But because you've 20 added impervious area, and you've affected more 21 than 4,000 square feet, your runoff is going to 22 be greater because you don't have the absorption 23 capacity of the ground in that area that's now 24 been disturbed and has been changed over from 25 native soils to an impervious area. Page 110 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 So, that has to be kept in mind as you 2 evaluate the application because you do have an 3 addition, you do have an expanded driveway, 4 you've got a patio and sidewalks that create 5 additional impervious area. And so, when the 6 grading and drainage analysis is done, engineers 7 will look at what existed at the time of the 8 application? How much impervious area was there? 9 How much impervious area? 10 And they put in what's called a "curve 11 number". A curve number is used by engineers 12 (indiscernible) engineers to identify the 13 percentage of impervious versus pervious area. 14 Like, it might be 80, it might be 95, whatever it 15 is, and then they look at it for the proposed 16 development. And that number likely drops, 17 meaning there's no runoff when you have more 18 impervious added to the lot. 19 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: That's why we 20 ended up paying more for (indiscernible). We did 21 that and (indiscernible) permit and you put 22 together a plan, a drainage plan (indiscernible) 23 everything in the house (indiscernible) the 24 driveway (indiscernible) that was in the erosion 25 control plan that we paid for. Page 111 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 2 BRANDMEIER: No-one's disputing that. 3 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: (indiscernible) 4 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Let's -- 5 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: So, I 6 feel like we're getting a little bit repetitive. 7 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: I hear you. 8 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: But I do 9 have code specific questions, and I'll start with 10 you, Mr. Brandmeier. 756-7E(1), do you have 11 that? 12 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 13 BRANDMEIER: Yes. 14 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: Now this 15 is related to the building permit. They needed a 16 building permit for this project, correct? 17 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 18 BRANDMEIER: That is correct. 19 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: So, for 20 their building permit sub E relates to drainage. 21 Sub 1 says grading of lots. A says, "A drainage 22 plan is required (1) for applications for the 23 construction of a new principal building." That 24 doesn't apply, right? (1) does not apply. 25 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT Page 112 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 BRANDMEIER: It's not a new principal building, 2 it's an addition. 3 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: "(2) For 4 applications for land disturbing activity 5 requiring a permit affects the surface area of 6 4,000 square feet or more." Does that apply? 7 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 8 BRANDMEIER: I believe that it does, yes. 9 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: So, the 10 phrase "requiring a permit", it says, "For 11 applications for land disturbing activity 12 requiring a permit that affects the surface area 13 of 4,000 square feet." Do you have an opinion of 14 what that language would require of you? 15 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: It would require 16 it being outside of the exemptions, obviously. 17 In the beginning of that same thing, it says -- 18 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: I -- I 19 asked -- I'm talking to Mr. Brandmeier for the 20 moment. And if you don't, then I'm just going to 21 move on. But I'd just highlight that that does 22 say that. Do you have a thought on that? 23 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 24 BRANDMEIER: This is an activity that required a 25 permit, the addition. So, we -- and I'd have to Page 113 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 go back to -- frankly, I'd have to go back to our 2 -- the notes that (indiscernible) when we were 3 looking to adopt this part of the ordinance. My 4 recollection from 15, 16, 17 years ago is that 5 you have land disturbing activity requiring a 6 permit. 7 So, that could be an addition to a new 8 house and any other activity that might require a 9 permit under the code, and you're going to 10 disturb 4,000 square feet of land 11 (indiscernible). Okay. 12 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: So, then 13 sub 3 says, "For applications for land disturbing 14 activity, other than tree removal on the face of 15 the ravine bluff or lake bluff. Does that apply? 16 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 17 BRANDMEIER: And that does not apply. 18 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: 4, "For 19 all circumstances where a fill permit is 20 required, pursuant to Chapter 272 of this code." 21 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 22 BRANDMEIER: Which we don't know at this time. 23 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: That may 24 or may not be a trigger here. 25 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT Page 114 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 BRANDMEIER: Right. 2 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: And then 3 sub 5 says, "When required by the Village in 4 particular cases due to particular concerns 5 arising in the application." 6 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 7 BRANDMEIER: And that could certainly apply 8 because you're adding impervious area on a 9 smaller lot. 10 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: So, you 11 would have applied sub 5 regardless -- 12 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 13 BRANDMEIER: Yes. 14 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: -- of 1, 15 2, 3 or 4? 16 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 17 BRANDMEIER: Yes. 18 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: So, you 19 would say that the drainage plan is required 20 because this code section allows you to require 21 it, and you did require it? 22 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 23 BRANDMEIER: That is correct. 24 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Well, what 25 would you articulate is your particular concerns? Page 115 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 2 BRANDMEIER: Residential infill, adding 3 impervious area on a small lot. 4 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Adding impervious 5 area is not relative to filling or grading. 6 That's relating to storm water. And the house 7 itself is impervious. The garage, it's -- you 8 don't get grading from it from the garage. At 9 the top of that same 756-7, the first line on the 10 first page says, "Filling and grading 11 (indiscernible) patio justified" and that's how 12 they described land disturbing activities on all 13 three permits. 14 Erosion is land disturbing activities, 15 (indiscernible) is land disturbing activities, 16 filling and grading is land disturbing 17 activities. It's just not land disturbing 18 activities. It's relating to the subheading of 19 the permit application, which says, "Grading." 20 That's how the contracts read. That's a legal 21 document. The subheadings are related to them. 22 Underneath that section is related to -- and in 23 itself, grading. 24 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: So, you're 25 saying it's only where you trenched or excavated Page 116 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 to put the addition on that's subject to the 2 counting of the square footage for this section? 3 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: No, the grading is 4 where you change the topography of the lot and 5 then (indiscernible). Scott did a great job 6 explaining why that permit is relative. It is. 7 (indiscernible) perfect. It's exactly right. 8 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Right. 9 You're (indiscernible) under the 4,000. 10 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: I just -- I don't 11 -- first of all, I'm not going to grade it. I'm 12 done, and I can't grade it. And the driveway 13 can't be graded. The original permit -- why have 14 a gravel permit for the driveway if you're not 15 putting a fill requirement or somehow monitor 16 that? You'd need to have a permit for the 17 driveway. 18 There is no permit for it, so if 19 anybody wants to put a driveway -- let's say it's 20 all I did was put in the driveway. Nobody would 21 come around telling me I need a fill and grading 22 permit. If all I did was the patio and the 23 sidewalks, the planters and just, I'm the 24 neighbor, there would be no question of what I 25 did. It's all exempt. It's exempt. Page 117 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 It makes it clear you can do this. So, 2 I did it without a permit. They all watched me 3 do it, and they watched me clean up that mess 4 down to the grass to try to replant it. I did 5 this trying to follow the codes. We had a 6 contract, you might say. He said, "Okay, do 7 this, get rid of all the dirt (indiscernible) 8 final elevations." That's what I did. 9 Everything else didn't require a 10 permit. So, I'm not here asking permission and 11 now you're saying I needed permission and there's 12 some sort of unseen requirement that's in some 13 other code? Because 756-7 is the application for 14 this permit. You can't say that these exemptions 15 don't apply. You know what? If you want to 16 clarify it, you need to clarify it because the 17 language is why we're in this argument. 18 And we all went around in circles, 19 "land disturbing activity, land disturbing 20 activity". That’s for the (indiscernible). It's 21 also in the (indiscernible). It's also in the 22 other (indiscernible). So, this is the problem. 23 It's not written clearly. And, you know, Scott, 24 both Scotts (indiscernible) tried to make sense 25 of this, but they're just trying to do their job. Page 118 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 But you have to have some logic here. It's not - 2 - it just doesn't make any sense. 3 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: So, I 4 think we can close our argument unless -- yeah, 5 unless we want a summation, or I know there was a 6 suggestion for a briefing. I don't know if we 7 want to pursue that. 8 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I think if 9 there was an attorney here for the applicant, 10 that might be different. But I hesitate to ask 11 the applicant to write a brief. I think he's 12 done what you would expect his attorney to do. 13 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Yeah. 14 Well, what I have in mind is that -- I mean, 15 Scott's more or less done it. But I think 16 there's still a lot of clutter in there, like 17 about the emails back and forth. I'd like to 18 see, "Here's the code sections that are 19 applicable. Here's how I interpret them and 20 here's the facts that make it applicable." 21 Like bullet points, like, one page. 22 And then, Mr. -- how do you pronounce your last 23 name? 24 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Bencriscutto. 25 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: You get his Page 119 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 brief, and you respond to it, and you say, "He's 2 wrong on Point 1 and here's why, legally and 3 factually. He's wrong on Point 2. Here's why 4 legally and factually." Now, we give Scott a 5 week to give us that and then you will wait to 6 write it back and then we call a special meeting 7 because I am -- I cannot make a decision and I 8 believe you're entitled to a fair shake. 9 And I tried to be prepared to come here 10 and I was, to the best of my ability, I think. 11 But I'm not prepared to make a decision. So, at 12 this point, unless someone convinces me, I'd 13 probably abstain from a motion on the merits 14 because I don't think I'd be giving the applicant 15 a fair shake at this point. 16 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Can I offer a 17 compromise? 18 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Sorry? 19 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Can I offer a 20 compromise? Considering the before and after has 21 already been done. I already did the plan review 22 and the drainage from it (indiscernible) it's all 23 gone. If you just want me to get the permit, but 24 I don't go through all the other stuff, I would 25 be happy to just pay for the permit to settle. Page 120 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 It's only $400, but I'm not going to 2 post a $5,000 cash bond and -- because I've got 3 the plans, and it's already finished. So, it 4 isn't like you have to check it. The elevations 5 have been shown. I'm not affecting the drainage. 6 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Here's how 7 I view that. I don't think we have, as a 8 decision-making body, I don't think we can say, 9 "We're going to settle it this way." I think we 10 can say, "We'll handle this briefing." You two 11 can make friends in the meantime and if you 12 resolve it, you could say, "I withdraw my 13 application", and you don't need to decide it and 14 you could go on with your lives. 15 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: And I think 16 it's clear Mr. Brandmeier's already said that he 17 needs more. He needs a -- I don't know what he 18 called it, but a drainage analysis, for lack of a 19 better word, a water drainage analysis that 20 (indiscernible). And this has gone on -- I mean, 21 they can do whatever they do. I agree with you, 22 we're not here to resolve compromises. 23 On your briefing suggestion, I 24 personally don't think we're going to get 25 anything more than we've got. Mr. Brandmeier did Page 121 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 a four or five-page summary, if you will, of the 2 situation. The applicant did a one or two-page 3 appeal of his situation. They've obviously 4 talked about it, at length, here. I personally 5 don't think we're going to get more out of 6 additional writings. 7 I do think we could give some 8 preliminary thoughts to our attorney who could 9 try to formulate a draft document that we could 10 then look at in terms of a determination, and 11 then modify, as needed, maybe in a closed 12 session. I don't know, but not tonight, but in 13 the future. I don't know. That's just my 14 position. We can get advice from counsel, 15 obviously, on what the best -- 16 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: So, just 17 to summarize the status of where I think we are, 18 to your point, I think 756-7 is the heart of the 19 issue. Do they have to do that drainage plan or 20 not? The drainage plan is quite specific and 21 that's his concern is that it's going to be quite 22 costly and time-consuming to do that. We don't 23 know until we have that, whether the fill permit 24 is even required. 25 We're referencing the fill permit may Page 122 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 be required, but we're not -- what I heard is 2 that the Village is not saying they have to do 3 that, necessarily, till we see that drainage 4 plan. And 285, the erosion control permit, I've 5 heard both sides say it's moot, it's done. So, I 6 think the only issue is 756-7. Do they -- is the 7 Village fairly requiring the applicant here to do 8 that drainage plan? 9 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: The only 10 caveat I would add is, whether we want to do this 11 is not a question. But I think the Village is 12 looking to us, and perhaps the applicant as well, 13 if they get to the fill permit, does it include 14 the driveway and patio, the fill under the 15 driveway and patio? And that's, sort of, an 16 advisory opinion and maybe you don't want us to 17 do that. 18 But it would save them time, if they 19 get to that process. That’s the only caveat on 20 272. 21 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: You've got to 22 remember, I already submitted the permitted plans 23 and (indiscernible) the permit (indiscernible). 24 We executed that plan, and as agreed, we moved 25 the dirt and gave final elevations. This was the Page 123 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 requirement for our building permit. 2 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I understand 3 you submitted an additional drawing that said 4 over 4,000 square feet of land disturbing 5 activities. You submitted a revised one to say 6 2,100 square feet of land disturbing activities. 7 And essentially, what Mr. Brandmeier and the 8 Village are saying is that you didn't live up to 9 that plan of 2,100 square feet, you've now 10 disturbed over 4,000 square feet. You disagree. 11 I get that. 12 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: I (indiscernible) 13 disagree with the fact that (indiscernible) 14 control permit plan was accurate, and we did it 15 exactly like it was supposed to be done. Even 16 though we disturbed more area, the minimum was 17 8,000 feet, which he's acknowledging. The only 18 thing we're disputing is, do I need a fill permit 19 for grading, when I've already done my drainage 20 plan? 21 I can't change the drainage plan. I've 22 already submitted it. I've already finished the 23 job. I'm not going to change the drainage plan. 24 The argument is, do I need a fill permit now, for 25 what we put underneath the driveway, or if we put Page 124 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 some dirt in the planters? And (indiscernible) 2 logic on that, even if you add it all up, it's 3 still under 4,000 square feet, not cubic yards. 4 That's not relative. It's square feet. Why? 5 Because it affects the topography of the lot. 6 So, if you go into (indiscernible) my 7 planter along the side of the building and say 8 it's affecting the drainage of the lot. 9 Impossible. I’m an engineer. It doesn't -- 10 there's no more water or less and it's not 11 (indiscernible). It's going down through the 12 rocks where it was supposed to go before. 13 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: But Mr. 14 Brandmeier said you haven't done a drainage plan 15 because you haven't done the 100-year something, 16 right? 17 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: We had to have the 18 drainage plan for the erosion permit. 19 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Okay, so 20 then what requires the additional 100-year -- 21 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: Grading is not 22 changing the topography. 23 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Correct. 24 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: So, let's say I 25 wanted to add -- let's say the lot was Page 125 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 (indiscernible) a whole bunch of (indiscernible). 2 It's not changing the way it flows. 3 (indiscernible) careful so I don’t go into the 4 neighbor's yard or whatever. I mean, I get that. 5 It makes sense. 6 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: So -- 7 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: But I can't grade 8 that lot. 9 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: Did you 10 provide, in your plan, flows off the property in 11 the 210 and 100-year storm events? 12 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: That's not 13 required for the erosion permit because I'm not 14 changing the topography. The erosion permit is 15 (indiscernible) 16 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: I -- I’m 17 just asking, did you or did you not do that? 18 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: No, because we 19 didn't grade it. 20 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: Okay. 21 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: This whole 22 argument is, do I need a grading permit when I'm 23 not going to grade anything? 24 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: So, Mr. 25 Brandmeier, let's assume he submitted the 210 and Page 126 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 100-year plans and the drainage, etc. and let's 2 say you don't like the way (indiscernible) built. 3 What other kind of possibilities? And I'm not 4 (indiscernible). So, as an example, would you 5 possibly have him grade the lot to create swales 6 and lower levels that are sort of in the middle 7 of the yard that run towards Dean Road, for 8 example? 9 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 10 BRANDMEIER: Yes. 11 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Is that the 12 kind of thing you would do? 13 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 14 BRANDMEIER: Yes. So, that is correct. We 15 evaluate that when the -- when an applicant 16 submits that grading and drainage analysis of 17 pre- and post-development flows, there are what's 18 called (indiscernible) 19 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I just want - 20 - I really don't need -- 21 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 22 BRANDMEIER: Okay. 23 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: -- why. I 24 just wanted -- 25 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT Page 127 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 BRANDMEIER: Yes. 2 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: That's the 3 kind of thing. It wouldn't necessarily be what 4 you would do. I'm just saying that's the kind of 5 thing you've done on other properties? 6 DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS SCOTT 7 BRANDMEIER: Yes. 8 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: But I would have 9 to change the grade to (indiscernible) 10 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Yes, you 11 would. 12 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: But I'm not 13 changing the grade. It's the way it was. That's 14 -- I had to (indiscernible) once. 15 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Does 16 someone want to make a motion? 17 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: I agree. I don't 18 see how you can come up with any other 19 conclusions. We're arguing (indiscernible). I 20 think the whole problem is -- this whole argument 21 is semantics of 756-7 when it said, "land 22 disturbing activities" instead of saying, 23 "grading and filling activities". And that's 24 because they used the same definition 25 (indiscernible) Page 128 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: I mean, I 2 think -- I think -- 3 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: (indiscernible) 4 VILLAGE MANAGER SCOTT BOTCHER: 5 (indiscernible) 6 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Go ahead. 7 Final word. 8 VILLAGE MANAGER SCOTT BOTCHER: This, 9 to me, is really silly. This really isn't that 10 hard, I don't think. He's going to need a fill 11 permit. He said he's disturbed more than 4,000 12 square feet. 756-7 here applies. 13 (indiscernible) done. That's not a question. 14 This is not a question. 15 We'll go round and round for two hours 16 in circles on 4,000 -- it doesn't matter. He's 17 admitted he (indiscernible) and he's going to 18 need a fill permit. It's done. 19 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: He hasn't 20 admitted that, though. You haven't -- have you 21 admitted that? 22 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: This -- 23 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Wait, wait, 24 wait. I think we've heard enough from everybody. 25 VILLAGE MANAGER SCOTT BOTCHER: Page 129 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 (indiscernible) 2 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I really -- 3 for me, we've heard enough from everybody. I 4 move to close the testimony. 5 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 6 Testimony is closed at 7:17. 7 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Well, wait a 8 minute. I don't know if everybody else agrees 9 with me or not. 10 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: I'll second 11 it. 12 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: I'll 13 second it. So, you can just take -- 14 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Unanimous 15 consent? You had unanimous consent to close 16 testimony? 17 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: Yes. 18 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: All right. 19 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Yes. 20 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 21 All right. Testimony is closed at 7:17. 22 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: How do 23 you want to proceed? 24 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: I would 25 propose my briefing schedule, but I don't think Page 130 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 there'd be a majority that agree. 2 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Does anyone? 3 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Somebody 4 has to make it on the merits. 5 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: I feel like 6 everything's been presented to us at this point. 7 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Yeah. Does 8 anyone -- 9 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: 10 (indiscernible) clear way. 11 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: We can, but 12 it's not noticed for closed session. 13 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: It's what? 14 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: It's not 15 noticed for closed session. 16 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Does anyone -- 17 are you ready to make a motion? 18 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: It should 19 always (indiscernible) closed session. 20 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: I am. 21 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Okay. 22 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: 23 (indiscernible) I don't know how detailed a 24 motion you want. Fundamentally, my motion would 25 be to deny the appeal for the reasoning and Page 131 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 justification to help our attorney draft a 2 decision. But that's fundamentally the motion. 3 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: What's the 4 basis of the denial? 5 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: You get a 6 second person? 7 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: Sure. 8 Is there a second? 9 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: If you'd 10 repeat it, just one more time. 11 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: It's to deny 12 the appeal. He's appealing their decision. 13 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: We're denying - 14 - 15 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: My motion is 16 to deny the appeal and their decision stands. 17 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: I'd have to 18 second that. Is that further with the opinion 19 from the attorney? 20 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Well, yeah, 21 we'll get to it. 22 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: So, I'm 23 happy to write something up for you for your 24 consideration to support that decision. And we 25 can go into closed session to talk about it. And Page 132 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 I can tell you that I'm envisioning, based on the 2 discussion, that determination would be that the 3 grading plan of 756-7 is required because under 4 757-E(1)(a)(5), it's required when the Village, 5 in particular cases, determine -- has concerns 6 arising in the application. 7 For nothing -- no other reason, the 8 Village Director of Public Works has said that he 9 has some particular concerns. And so, he wants 10 this plan that's required for the building 11 permit. There are other subsections here that 12 seem to apply, as well. But I don't know that we 13 need to dwell on them because we have this catch- 14 all. 15 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Well, I agree 16 with what you said. I would say that there are 17 alternate grounds, which is the 756-7(1)(a)(2), 18 which is the land disturbing activity over 4,000 19 square feet. And I would address the applicant's 20 arguments, as best as I understand them, by 21 saying that I believe these requirements of 756 22 are independent of and completely separate from 23 anything contained in 272. 24 I don't see -- or in 285. I see these 25 as, if you will, three separate silos, three Page 133 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 separate requirements and whether a fill permit 2 is required or not, has nothing to do with 3 whether a drainage permit is required for land 4 disturbing activities over 4,000 square feet 5 (indiscernible). Whether an erosion permit is 6 required for 8,000 square feet of disturbing 7 activities is a separate thing from whether a 8 drainage permit or a fill permit is required. 9 And I see them as separate. I 10 understand, on a contractor's perspective, why a 11 person might see these as all interrelated and I 12 think in the -- out on the piece of property, 13 they are, I'll just say, physically interrelated, 14 but they are three separate requirements under 15 the code, and I see them as separate. 16 So, I think you can't take the 17 exceptions for driveways and patios and planters, 18 et cetera from 272 and put them into 756- 19 7(1)(a)(4), or excuse me, (1)(a)(2). So, I just 20 see them as separate. 21 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: Thank 22 you. 23 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: How could it be 24 separate? That's the application for 272 25 (indiscernible) Page 134 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: Your 2 time is done. (indiscernible) 3 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: And I'll 4 just say, I understand what you're saying, but 5 Section 272 is addressed in that subsection. So, 6 what you're saying makes sense to me, but from my 7 perspective, it requires more study and more 8 analysis and I'm not ready to concede that the 9 applicant is wrong because there does seem to 10 potentially be some incorporation. 11 I'm not saying I'm right, but I'm just 12 saying I am not to where you are. 13 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: But, and 14 just, so where are you seeing the incorporation 15 part? Is it subsection -- 16 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Well, I’m 17 not saying I do see the incorporation. 18 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Well, I mean 19 -- 20 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: I'm just 21 saying, I think -- 22 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: The 23 possibility of incorporation. 24 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Right, 25 because -- right. Two subsections below, it Page 135 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 references 272. So, to me that shows, if I sat 2 down and poured over these statutes, I may come 3 to that conclusion that there is some 4 incorporation, and one may be the general and 5 this is the specific. That may be completely 6 wrong. 7 I'm just saying, as I sit here tonight, 8 I am not prepared to vote to say that the 9 applicant is wrong on that. And I'm also not 10 prepared to say he's right. I'm just -- I am not 11 prepared to make a decision. 12 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: So, I would 13 just say, in response to that, I agree, obviously 14 272 is incorporated in Subsection 4. But I see 15 that as completely independent on whether 272 has 16 anything to do with Subsection -- 17 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Right. 18 Just so some interrelation between the two 19 sections. That's all. And there may be more, 20 there may not be. 21 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: Well, 22 given that you're going to ask me to write it 23 out, do you want to table your motion until you 24 have an opportunity to see it in writing at your 25 next meeting, and then make the final decision Page 136 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 then? 2 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: In two 3 months we would do it, as a special meeting? 4 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: Well, 5 you may want to do a special meeting, yeah. 6 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: 7 (indiscernible), so I would say we should add a 8 special meeting. 9 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: 10 (indiscernible) two weeks from today though. 11 Yeah, I can't do it that day unless we do it 12 earlier, if we did it at -- 13 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: What day are 14 you looking at? 15 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: 4 16 o'clock. I could do (indiscernible) 17 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: The 9th? 18 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: The 9th. 19 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Are you talking 20 about -- 21 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: On the 22 9th. Otherwise, the 10th, I can do 5 o'clock. 23 BOARD MEMBER THOMAS DUNST: I cannot do 24 it at 6. 25 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Can you do the Page 137 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 9th at -- 2 BOARD MEMBER THOMAS DUNST: 3 (indiscernible) 4 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: I couldn't 5 hear (indiscernible) 6 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: The 9th, at 4. 7 Adam? 8 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: The 9th at 9 4? Sure. I would also invite post-hearing 10 briefing due within a week. 11 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I have no 12 objection. I guess the way I would put it is, if 13 the applicant wants to submit something, I 14 wouldn't require that he do. 15 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Yeah. 16 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: If they want 17 to submit something more in writing in the next 18 week, feel free to do it. If you feel like 19 you've submitted everything, either in writing or 20 verbally, if you want a say, then you don't have 21 to. It's up to you. 22 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: I think we should 23 submit, because it's a legal argument. 24 (indiscernible) 25 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Yeah. Well, Page 138 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 it's up to you. You have the opportunity if you 2 want to submit something. Within a week. Is 3 that okay with everybody? 4 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: It is. 5 (indiscernible) 6 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: So, 7 submit it to the Clerk if you care to. It's due 8 a week from today and (indiscernible) distribute 9 it when she gets it. 10 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: And we will - 11 - 12 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: 13 (indiscernible) 14 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: I tend to put 15 on the agenda the possibility of a closed 16 session. 17 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 18 I just need a new motion to table it, then. 19 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: Oh. Well, 20 I'd move to table -- 21 BOARD MEMBER THOMAS DUNST: I'll move 22 to table. 23 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 24 Okay. 25 BOARD MEMBER SCOTT RATKE: I'll second Page 139 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 it. 2 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: All 3 those in favor? 4 (All respond "aye") 5 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: So, 6 October 9th at 4 p.m. 7 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 8 October 9th at 4 p.m. 9 BOARD MEMBER THOMAS DUNST: We're 10 admitting (indiscernible) 11 VILLAGE ATTORNEY ERIC LARSON: Yeah. 12 CHAIR NANCY FILSINGER: Motion to 13 adjourn? 14 BOARD MEMBER THOMAS DUNST: Move to 15 adjourn. 16 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: I second 17 it. 18 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 19 All those in favor? 20 (All respond "Aye") 21 VILLAGE CLERK TREASURER SARA BRUCKMAN: 22 Opposed? We're adjourned at 7:28. 23 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: These are 24 your drawings. (indiscernible) 25 (indiscernible) Page 140 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 RALPH BENCRISCUTTO: You can have those 2 (indiscernible) 3 BOARD MEMBER ADAM BAZELON: Oh, okay. 4 BOARD MEMBER MARK GRADY: They're in 5 your packet, too. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 141 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 C E R T I F I C A T I O N 2 3 I, Sonya Ledanski Hyde, certify that the 4 foregoing transcript is a true and accurate 5 record of the proceedings. 6 7 8 9 <%12151,Signature%> 10 11 Veritext Legal Solutions 12 330 Old Country Road 13 Suite 300 14 Mineola, NY 11501 15 16 Date: October 30, 2024 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 142 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 1 1 10:10 55:1 74:10 112:10 112:21,22,24 115:14 120:2 133:4,17 134:19,19 1,200 107:2 10 7:18 41:14 42:17 58:22 65:14 67:2 75:17 10,000 105:18 100 26:16 62:8 75:17 76:17 107:4 125:15 125:20 126:11 127:1 10th 137:22 11501 142:14 12 13:8,10 12,000 24:17 52:18,25 76:20 12-18 59:3,19 60:22,23 12151 142:9 13 57:9 15 24:10 58:22 114:4 15,000 44:14 16 114:4 16-17 102:3 17 114:4 18 63:15 68:3 68:22,25 69:20 74:1,4 108:9 108:10,20 109:18,21 1937 54:11 19th 12:2 1a 98:11 2 2 3:1 48:9 113:3 115:15 120:3 133:17 134:19 2,000 107:1 2,100 16:9 72:21 124:6,9 20 73:14,24 74:10 20-25 102:4 2017 7:8 2022 54:12,17 2023 18:6 21:9 24:3 25:7 54:14 2024 1:12 3:5 54:12,16,17 142:16 2024-078339 10:5 21 21:9 22:12 103:6,21 210 62:3,7 76:17 126:11 126:25 217-10e 73:3 217.10b. 72:3 21st 21:18 82:2 22 3:5 23 18:6 63:12 23rd 21:17 25 1:12 14:23 15:13 16:12 17:1,9 44:6 45:23 57:3,7 57:12 63:5,17 63:18 64:16 65:1,6,7,14 72:11 73:10 74:13 75:7,9 78:1 84:5 86:1 96:20 97:15 98:22 101:23 102:16 103:17 105:25 106:7 256 49:4 256-7 85:14 88:17 262 33:4 27 15:23 73:18 74:10 272 14:21 18:23 38:22 42:16,16 47:17 47:18,20 49:10 49:18 55:17 77:1,25 78:3,3 78:15,17 81:16 83:13,16,24 84:10 85:16 96:24 100:14 100:24 102:21 102:21 109:4,5 109:7,12 114:20 123:20 133:23 134:18 134:24 135:5 136:1,14,15 272-1 47:22 48:23 272-10 47:21 70:4 78:21 101:9 105:23 272-10e 75:3 272-1a 98:9 272-2g 84:22 272.10 86:2 282 83:14 285 14:13,20 18:21 31:20 43:15 48:24,24 49:10 50:14 78:13 81:5,18 83:13,22 100:16 123:4 133:24 285-43 49:1 3 3 4:25 7:18 34:5 114:13 115:15 3-4 68:2 30 5:3,18,25 6:9,17,22 8:10 73:18,18 103:19 142:16 [1 - 30] Page 1 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 300 142:13 330 142:12 35 73:19 74:10 4 4 10:5 14:13 38:6 42:5 114:18 115:15 134:19 136:14 137:15 138:6,9 140:6,8 4,000 16:14 33:18,20 34:19 36:13 37:17,19 39:1,8 42:11 42:13 45:21 46:21 49:24 51:22 52:1 53:13 54:25 55:4,10 56:2,3 72:22 73:2 74:15,17 76:16 76:21,21 80:12 85:15,18,20,25 86:1 87:3,4 88:2,5 94:18 94:22 95:10,10 95:15 99:19 107:5 110:21 113:6,13 114:10 117:9 124:4,10 125:3 129:11,16 133:18 134:4 4,000-5,000 76:13,20 4,500 16:3 40 73:14,24 74:10 400 121:1 45 12:4 35:15 46 12:4 5 5 5:7 7:8 65:14 67:2 75:17 83:15 115:3,11 133:4 137:22 5,000 35:14 51:22 75:17 76:21 121:2 50 107:4 50,000 105:19 500 103:11 6 6 24:3 25:7 99:12 137:24 600 94:8 95:20 107:2 678 58:19 680 33:4 58:18 74:24 681 74:25 685 74:25 7 7 55:1 96:4 134:19 7,000 15:4 106:12 714 10:21 72-20 38:5 756 38:25 42:8 49:20 54:25 77:1 79:23 80:1,12 82:4,5 82:9 93:15 96:3 100:14 133:21 134:18 756-7 38:2,13 39:3 48:23 55:15 64:7 79:16 81:4,15 82:18 88:18,20 95:24 99:20 101:16 102:2,7 102:8,18,23 109:7 110:5,9 116:9 118:13 122:18 123:6 128:21 129:12 133:3,17 756-7d 53:9 756-7e 10:10 15:16 18:22 76:15 77:11 78:14 81:21 87:20 112:10 757 133:4 7:17 130:6,21 7:28 140:22 8 8 99:12 8,000 14:17 16:14,22 22:17 33:22,24 41:10 43:17,18,19,25 44:6,7,10 49:24 50:5,21 50:21 51:18 54:25 56:10,11 76:21 81:6 88:12 94:3,6 95:10,10,20 96:2,5 99:20 124:17 134:6 80 111:14 800 73:15,17 94:9 95:20 96:4 8525 10:23 9 95 111:14 9th 137:17,18 137:22 138:1,6 138:8 140:6,8 a abide 18:13 ability 120:10 able 17:3 47:14 54:15 61:2,4 89:25 101:19 101:22 above 39:14 59:4,19 63:15 97:22 108:11 absence 82:5 absorption 110:22 [300 - absorption] Page 2 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com abstain 120:13 accept 55:25 accepted 43:16 accurate 4:20 105:8 124:14 142:4 accurately 66:14 acknowledge 76:13 acknowledged 60:23 74:1 76:19 acknowledging 124:17 acre 44:13 action 27:10 actionable 5:14 actions 26:3 activities 14:6 14:16 15:19 18:19 22:18 24:23 37:20 41:19 85:15,25 86:21 88:1,25 94:16 105:25 116:12,14,15 116:17,18 124:5,6 128:22 128:23 134:4,7 activity 16:21 18:4,7,14 19:2 19:16 33:14,17 33:19 34:4,12 34:13,17 37:21 39:7,11,15 41:1,7,11 42:11 43:7,10 43:11,13 50:15 50:20 51:10,13 51:18 55:3,9 72:22 80:13 81:19 82:10 85:17,23 89:12 95:17 96:14 113:4,11,24 114:5,8,14 118:19,20 133:18 actually 46:15 67:14 100:23 adam 2:23,24 3:2,3,22,23 6:21 7:1,4,7,12 7:20 9:5,6,16 9:19 12:18,23 25:6 28:12,20 29:7,9 37:25 38:7,11,16,19 39:2,18,22 40:1,11,19,24 41:21 44:15 45:3,10,15 46:3,7 47:8,13 47:16,18,20,25 48:3,22 49:11 51:2 53:10 60:3,10 61:16 61:23 62:5,22 70:9,13 71:11 71:18 77:14,21 81:18 87:2,19 87:24 88:8,18 89:2 90:23 93:1,2,6 96:19 96:23 97:2,6 97:12,16,21 98:4,15,19,23 115:24 116:24 117:8 119:13 119:25 121:6 125:13,19,23 128:15 129:1,6 129:19 130:24 131:3,20 132:3 135:3,16,20,24 136:17 138:7,8 138:15 140:16 140:23 141:3 add 32:4 35:22 35:24 36:2,7 37:15 58:23 66:23,24 67:1 72:6,17 73:15 74:7 75:7,9,24 90:16 99:12 106:24 109:13 109:16 110:2 123:10 125:2 125:25 137:7 added 35:19 36:5,6 40:6,15 60:19 63:23 65:13 68:2 69:20,23 90:13 90:18,24 101:13 106:22 110:12,20 111:18 adding 85:19 115:8 116:2,4 addition 33:4 39:21,23 40:15 40:16 54:3,4,6 59:5 61:2 62:12 63:15 84:14 90:18,20 91:7,8,12,13 110:13 111:3 113:2,25 114:7 117:1 additional 25:24,24 27:13 102:22 110:11 111:5 122:6 124:3 125:20 additions 63:10 address 10:19 15:12 29:22 30:10,14,16,21 31:5 77:24 78:2 83:18 84:20 85:9,12 133:19 addressed 28:23 100:16 135:5 addressing 83:19,22 [abstain - addressing] Page 3 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com adds 69:8 adjacent 27:14 74:3 adjourn 140:13 140:15 adjourned 140:22 administrative 4:5,10 10:6 admitted 129:17,20,21 admitting 140:10 adopt 114:3 adopted 4:12 15:12 27:3 94:22 97:11 102:2 adverse 63:25 adversely 15:14 26:13,24 27:7,12 63:23 79:18 95:18 advice 122:14 advisory 123:16 aerial 54:10,12 54:12 affect 16:9 67:8 85:21 95:18 107:19,21 108:25 109:1 affected 15:7 16:22 108:4 110:20 affecting 14:17 26:24 75:21 84:4 96:1,5 121:5 125:8 affects 15:20 42:11 55:4 88:2 113:5,12 125:5 affirmative 98:5 agenda 2:25 4:3,25 10:5 139:15 ago 5:17 15:3 26:20 102:3 114:4 agree 43:25 46:6,16 51:17 51:25 55:8,9 77:15 85:2 88:5 99:6 103:14 104:9 121:21 128:17 131:1 133:15 136:13 agreed 18:12 36:6 56:2 99:19 108:13 123:24 agreement 17:24 49:22 95:11 agrees 130:8 ah 13:24 ahead 100:19 129:6 alleged 4:8 allow 61:10 allowed 64:3 allows 115:20 alternate 40:25 133:17 ambiguity 89:8 ambiguous 57:11 89:9 amount 67:9,11 99:2,9 101:12 ample 15:22 analysis 15:18 17:16 26:12,15 26:17 27:6,9 27:15,19 62:2 62:8 76:19 95:19 102:20 111:6 121:18 121:19 127:16 135:8 animal 94:18 answer 87:11 102:15 anybody 117:19 anything's 99:18 anyway 4:15 58:24 74:21 apart 43:1 apologies 83:11 apologize 21:16 appeal 4:5,14 5:1,6,21 10:6,7 122:3 131:25 132:12,16 appealed 5:17 appealing 132:12 appeals 1:12 2:8 4:7,8 5:22 7:18 79:10 appear 19:6 appears 16:25 22:17 25:22 103:25 applicable 9:20 81:15,16,20 88:4 119:19,20 applicant 5:21 6:1,15 10:6,14 11:23 13:13 14:4 16:2,6 17:21 19:1 20:21 21:1 22:4 23:8,16 23:20 24:3 25:23 27:11 30:8 49:17 50:2 53:15 63:12,21 74:1 77:6,12 78:19 78:24 80:7,22 81:16,17 93:13 99:6,19 101:8 102:21 103:15 [adds - applicant] Page 4 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 104:1 119:9,11 120:14 122:2 123:7,12 127:15 135:9 136:9 138:13 applicant's 10:1 26:2 99:4 133:19 applicants 14:22 15:12 17:8 application 16:3,8,17 49:2 55:15,21 66:1 85:16,24 96:14 103:9 109:5,7 109:10,13 111:2,8 115:5 116:19 118:13 121:13 133:6 134:24 applications 15:18 55:2 63:20 79:13 87:25 112:22 113:4,11 114:13 applied 16:4 27:18 55:20 60:4 83:8 115:11 applies 17:12 17:17,21 55:11 73:4 76:22 86:14 101:24 103:17 110:8 129:12 apply 18:16 38:20 49:14,18 53:16 73:5 76:8 77:1,2,11 78:12 79:13 80:1 83:7 87:3 89:3 97:25 99:21 100:7 101:9,12,24 102:1,19 108:14 109:5 110:8 112:24 112:24 113:6 114:15,17 115:7 118:15 133:12 approach 28:8 appropriate 5:11 8:10 9:15 45:8 approval 68:16 approved 61:5 61:10 65:24 arbitrator 18:1 area 14:17 15:20 16:4,15 23:17,18,22 24:7,12,16,18 24:22 27:12 42:24 43:24 53:13,19 54:1 54:5,22 55:4 61:4 74:17 76:14 77:8 79:17 80:16,20 80:24 81:2,3 88:2 91:8 94:3 94:7 96:13 107:3 110:7,7 110:12,20,23 110:25 111:5,8 111:9,13 113:5 113:12 115:8 116:3,5 124:16 areas 43:1 101:14 arenas 102:1 arguing 56:11 128:19 argument 9:13 34:1 36:10 42:12 49:16 51:10 55:25 56:4,9 57:4,6 57:16 59:25 60:1 67:24 69:25 70:25 72:5,10 84:4 87:23 88:16 95:11 99:4,23 100:2,3,3,21 103:16 104:10 107:24 110:6 118:17 119:4 124:24 126:22 128:20 138:23 arguments 85:12 87:14,18 133:20 arising 115:5 133:6 arrive 63:18 arrived 97:9 article 14:13 articulate 115:25 aside 45:18 asked 19:15 34:20 46:24,25 47:2,3 87:8 113:19 asking 118:10 126:17 aspect 85:2 aspects 85:3 asphalt 79:2 assume 57:14 61:14 72:5,9 80:7 104:5 126:25 assumes 70:15 assuming 27:17 67:23 104:8 assumption 89:4 attached 24:2 attachment 13:8,10 22:12 23:1 24:10 42:5 48:9 attachments 15:22 16:10 17:23 48:5 [applicant - attachments] Page 5 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com attorney 4:1 6:12,18,24 7:2 7:5,17 9:11,18 9:24 18:5,20 19:5,8,12 20:2 20:9 21:20 25:12,15,19 26:5 29:15,18 30:20 45:24 46:22 47:7 81:25 82:8 83:1,4,12,16 84:3,18,25 85:7,10,13 87:9 90:7,17 97:11 100:12 100:20 101:2 102:6 112:5,8 112:14,19 113:3,9,18 114:12,18,23 115:2,10,14,18 119:3,9,12 122:8,16 126:6 126:9,16,20 130:12,17,22 132:1,7,19,22 134:21 135:1 136:21 137:4,9 137:15,18,21 139:6,12 140:2 140:5,11 aversion 105:7 aware 4:22 83:8 aye 3:11,14,17 3:20,23 8:19 8:22,25 9:3,6 140:4,20 b b 97:8 back 8:9 23:2 32:22 33:12 35:18,21 39:10 44:4 54:11 57:21 65:22 70:18 90:8 114:1,1 119:17 120:6 backyard 44:5 69:6 89:21 bacteria 96:10 barring 55:3 base 91:21 based 9:13,13 18:18 19:3 23:22 63:6,6,9 89:11 99:18 133:1 basement 33:2 58:2 91:13 basin 28:5 basis 22:22 42:12 132:4 bazelon 2:23 2:24 3:3,22,23 6:21 7:1,4,7,12 7:20 9:5,6,16 9:19 12:18 25:6 28:12,20 29:9 37:25 38:7,11,16,19 39:2,18,22 40:1,11,19,24 41:21 44:15 45:3,10,15 46:3,7 47:8,13 47:16,18,20,25 48:3,22 49:11 51:2 53:10 60:3,10 61:16 61:23 62:5,22 70:9,13 71:11 71:18 77:14,21 81:18 87:2,19 87:24 88:8,18 89:2 90:23 93:2,6 96:19 96:23 97:2,6 97:12,16,21 98:4,15,19,23 115:24 116:24 117:8 119:13 119:25 121:6 125:13,19,23 128:15 129:1,6 129:19 130:24 131:3,20 132:3 135:3,16,20,24 136:17 138:8 138:15 140:16 140:23 141:3 beds 86:19 began 54:14 beginning 12:25 113:17 believe 19:20 19:23 20:3,6,8 28:18 41:1 47:9 50:19 55:11,16 76:6 79:22 82:17 106:17 113:8 120:8 133:21 believes 49:17 bencriscutto 6:16 29:24,25 30:6,15,23 31:12 33:3 38:5 39:5,20 39:23 40:4,17 40:20 41:3,24 42:14 43:12 44:2,5,12 45:1 45:5 47:5,12 47:15,17,19,22 48:12,18 49:3 49:8 50:4,9,13 51:1,4,12,21 54:7 55:14,19 56:8,15,18 57:9,19,24 58:10,15 59:7 59:11,15,21 60:2 61:21 62:17 63:2 64:9,12,14,24 67:22 68:6,10 68:24 69:4,13 [attorney - bencriscutto] Page 6 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 70:3,11,20 71:22 72:13,17 72:20 73:1 74:12 76:23 83:2 85:5,9,13 86:24 87:6,12 87:15,22 88:7 88:9,20 89:6 89:19 90:2,5 90:25 91:25 92:6,14,19,23 100:10 105:4 107:17 108:2 109:3 111:19 112:3 113:15 116:4 117:3,10 119:24,24 120:16,19 123:21 124:12 125:17,21,24 126:7,12,18,21 128:8,12,17 129:3,22 134:23 138:22 141:1 beneath 74:6 99:11 benefit 5:8 14:12 23:20 24:11 53:21 80:22,22 berm 65:9,10 65:11 105:20 berms 106:4 best 120:10 122:15 133:20 better 18:25 28:11 56:21 93:7 121:19 beyond 10:2 101:13 103:18 big 86:9 90:21 bingo 108:7 bit 112:6 black 57:10 blue 24:18 43:4 bluff 34:4 41:12,14 114:15,15 board 1:12 2:8 2:15,18,21,24 3:2,3,4,7,14,17 3:20,23 4:7 5:1 5:2,8,9,9,12,22 6:19,21,25 7:1 7:4,7,10,12,15 7:20,22 8:4,6 8:15,22,25 9:3 9:6,16,19 11:14,21 12:12 12:16,18,20,24 13:3,11,15,21 13:24 20:7,13 20:19,24 21:5 21:10,14,19,25 22:9,11,15,21 23:3,10,25 24:7,12,14,16 24:21 25:1,6,8 26:9 27:16,24 28:12,20 29:5 29:8,9,13 32:24 37:25 38:7,9,11,14,16 38:17,19,21 39:2,4,18,22 40:1,8,11,13,19 40:22,24 41:21 42:2,21 43:22 44:3,9,15 45:3 45:4,7,10,13,15 45:17 46:3,5,7 47:8,13,16,18 47:20,25 48:1 48:3,4,7,9,11 48:14,22 49:6 49:11,12 50:7 50:12,17 51:2 51:9,15,24 52:6,10,16,20 52:24 53:4,10 53:12 54:18,23 55:18,24 56:13 56:17,25 57:14 57:22 58:6,14 59:1,9,13,17,24 60:3,10 61:16 61:23 62:5,22 63:3 64:8,11 67:14,23 68:9 68:21 69:2,12 69:15 70:9,13 70:23 71:11,13 71:18,20 72:4 72:15,19,23 73:8,20 76:5 77:14,21 78:11 79:5,9,21 80:2 80:6,23 81:9 81:18 82:3,9 82:14,21 83:15 84:14,21 85:1 85:11 86:22,25 87:2,10,13,17 87:19,24 88:8 88:18 89:2,16 89:24 90:4,15 90:19,23 91:4 91:18 92:3,8 92:16,21,24 93:2,6,11 94:22 96:19,23 97:2,6,12,16,21 97:24 98:4,8 98:12,15,19,23 98:25 99:5,8 99:17,22 100:1 100:6,11 102:11,24 103:14,18 104:3,8,24 105:2 107:12 107:23 108:3 110:1 112:4 115:24 116:24 117:8 119:8,13 119:25 120:18 121:6,15 123:9 124:2 125:13 [bencriscutto - board] Page 7 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 125:19,23 126:24 127:11 127:19,23 128:2,10,15 129:1,6,19,23 130:2,7,10,19 130:24 131:3,5 131:9,11,14,18 131:20,22 132:3,5,9,11,15 132:17,20 133:15 135:3 135:13,16,18 135:20,22,24 136:12,17 137:2,13,23 138:2,4,8,11,15 138:16,25 139:10,14,19 139:21,25 140:9,14,16,23 141:3,4 body 121:8 bond 35:15 75:17 121:2 botcher 2:3 6:8 10:8,20,21 11:6 13:1,9,12 17:25 18:2,4 19:5 20:11,16 20:22 21:2,8 21:12,23 29:11 82:1 129:4,8 129:25 botcher's 20:10 bottom 7:18 14:13 15:25 boulders 36:19 36:20,21 68:13 brand 40:3 brandmeier 2:2 2:6 10:23,23 11:8,20,25 12:8,15,23 13:5,8,23 14:2 19:11 20:1 21:16 22:4,16 22:20,25 23:7 23:12 24:6,10 24:20,25 25:5 25:11,18,22 26:12 27:23 28:2,17,22 30:8,13 31:2,5 43:2 51:25 52:4,9,14,18,23 53:3,7,15 54:9 54:20 59:3 60:8,12 62:2 62:10 63:9 71:6 72:5 73:9 73:13,23 75:24 76:2,25 77:19 77:24 79:25 80:5,15 81:12 81:23 82:7,13 82:17,25 83:11 84:2,13,17 91:3,24 93:12 93:21 96:22 97:1,5,8,14,20 98:3,7,11,14,18 98:22,25 99:25 100:5,9,19 101:1,6 102:18 103:5 104:7,22 107:24,25 110:5 112:2,10 112:13,18 113:1,8,19,24 114:17,22 115:1,7,13,17 115:23 116:2 121:25 124:7 125:14 126:25 127:10,14,22 128:1,7 brandmeier's 48:5 50:18 121:16 bricks 32:11 brief 119:11 120:1 briefing 93:8 119:6 121:10 121:23 130:25 138:10 bring 53:20 54:9,11 91:5 broad 33:15 34:3 41:5 broader 83:24 85:3 broadly 41:2,4 brought 11:12 11:13 106:12 bruckman 2:10 2:13,16,19,22 3:9,12,15,18,21 3:24 8:17,20 8:23 9:1,4,7 10:13,17 11:1 11:9 13:19 22:6,13 29:20 30:1,18,24 130:5,20 139:17,23 140:7,18,21 bucks 35:14 build 54:5 58:5 94:24 107:22 building 15:16 27:5 28:24 42:10,16 50:1 50:22,25 58:7 78:15 82:18,20 87:7 101:4 112:15,16,20 112:23 113:1 124:1 125:7 133:10 built 60:4,13,14 61:7,8 95:6 104:14 108:8 127:2 bullet 119:21 bunch 126:1 [board - bunch] Page 8 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com burden 10:1 bushes 57:21 67:21 109:15 business 31:5 buyers 31:16 c c 142:1,1 calc 74:9 calculate 101:19 calculation 63:16 73:13,24 calculations 74:21 call 2:9 9:12 24:2 31:8 43:3 50:24 73:18 97:11 120:6 called 2:8 111:10 121:18 127:18 calling 78:3 capacity 110:23 care 92:5 139:7 careful 126:3 carries 3:25 9:8 case 4:3 9:12 9:21 10:5 37:21 77:6 78:13,22 cases 14:20 115:4 133:5 cash 35:14 121:2 catch 133:13 caveat 45:25 123:10,19 cement 71:8 72:8 certain 14:6,8 85:14 97:14 102:13,14 certainly 95:10 99:21 102:19 103:13 115:7 certify 142:3 cetera 14:6,16 94:9 99:3 103:2,2 105:7 134:18 chair 2:7,12,25 3:8,11 4:2 6:10 6:14 7:9 8:3,13 8:16,19 9:9 10:4,16 11:11 12:6 13:17 25:13,14 29:3 29:7,10,17 30:10 31:3,6 40:6 48:10,16 49:1 64:13,21 67:12 75:25 83:3 92:25 93:3 110:3 112:7 130:14 130:18 131:2,7 131:13,16,21 132:13 137:6 137:17,19,25 138:6 139:4 140:12 challenged 4:21 challenging 10:1 chance 104:25 108:23 change 48:20 65:3,17 66:14 66:18 67:6,7 74:18 75:5,6 89:22 106:9 110:19 117:4 124:21,23 128:9 changed 75:20 106:14 110:24 changes 75:5 changing 66:5 74:18 125:22 126:2,14 128:13 chapter 14:13 14:19,21 18:21 18:22 48:24 76:15 77:1 81:5,16 114:20 chapters 18:22 check 82:18 121:4 choice 93:10 circles 118:18 129:16 circumstances 5:12 102:9 114:19 citation 20:18 38:4 clarify 42:3 49:3 118:16,16 clay 32:18 33:4 51:8 92:1,11 clean 118:3 clear 19:14 34:24 70:7 83:6 118:1 121:16 131:10 cleared 74:15 clearly 76:15 80:21 86:16 118:23 clerk 2:10,13 2:16,19,22 3:9 3:12,15,18,21 3:24 8:17,20 8:23 9:1,4,7 10:13,17 11:1 11:9 13:19 22:6,13 29:20 30:1,18,24 130:5,20 139:7 139:17,23 140:7,18,21 close 13:2 29:19 55:14 89:22 119:4 130:4,15 [burden - close] Page 9 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com closed 122:11 130:6,21 131:12,15,19 132:25 139:15 closer 61:9 closing 29:11 clutter 119:16 coconut 94:12 code 14:8,9,11 14:19 15:17 16:23 18:11,15 19:21 27:3 34:21 42:16 44:21 46:8,8 47:9,10 48:2 48:23 49:9,13 53:16,17 55:16 55:20,22 57:12 70:3,22 78:7,9 78:10,15 82:18 82:20,22 89:10 94:1 95:12 109:9,12,13 112:9 114:9,20 115:20 118:13 119:18 134:15 codes 44:21 78:12 118:5 come 35:18,20 63:17 69:24 108:13 117:21 120:9 128:18 136:2 comes 33:13 36:10 38:12 coming 62:13 108:24 comment 3:3 42:3 63:4 64:10 85:6 103:8,12 105:2 comments 3:2 4:2 committee 66:7 communication 21:7,22 communicati... 59:2 community 95:6 company 96:9 comparative 17:16 compare 60:12 61:6 compared 17:5 complaints 26:23 complete 60:21 completely 78:8 94:18 95:6 104:9 133:22 136:5 136:15 comply 16:15 16:17 18:10,21 component 27:10 28:6 components 18:11 compromise 120:17,20 compromises 121:22 computer 24:1 concede 87:4 135:8 concern 20:6 122:21 concerned 49:13,14 concerns 115:4 115:25 133:5,9 conclusion 26:6 36:12 136:3 conclusions 128:19 concrete 71:24 73:17 74:8 79:2 91:12 99:10 condition 62:11 62:15 64:2 conditions 26:17,18 60:17 60:18 conduct 5:10 confirm 21:20 conflict 20:3 confused 44:25 93:4 consent 130:15 130:15 consider 4:23 90:12 consideration 132:24 considered 26:4 43:6 107:15 considering 24:22 120:20 constitutes 19:1 73:10 construct 14:5 constructed 40:2 42:10 constructing 92:9 construction 25:3 32:6 54:14 60:20,21 68:1 71:16 80:18 81:19 86:19 90:11,12 91:14 93:25 94:16 95:3 112:23 consultation 27:1 consulted 18:5 consuming 122:22 contained 16:10 20:9 21:21 22:5 133:23 context 4:23 19:17 [closed - context] Page 10 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com continual 18:24 contract 118:6 contractor's 134:10 contractors 32:16 61:11 contracts 116:20 control 14:15 23:15 36:15 38:18 41:8 43:15,16 45:18 51:13 56:20 76:8 78:14 81:6,10,14 85:21 94:10,12 95:22 96:7 102:5 105:8 111:25 123:4 124:14 convene 7:25 convenience 7:24 conversations 8:8 convinces 120:12 coordinates 61:12 copies 14:11 copy 24:4 37:10 core 94:11 correct 14:2,2,3 14:3,3 19:24 20:1,17 21:22 21:24 24:18,20 24:25 25:5,11 26:8 27:23 38:13 39:19 52:14 55:11,13 55:13 57:4 59:6,7,16 62:10 67:21 69:3 70:10 73:23 80:15 82:11 91:24 97:1 100:5,9 102:18 104:23 112:16,18 115:23 125:23 127:14 correctly 15:24 costly 122:22 couldn’t 68:24 counsel 20:5 122:14 count 73:21 counted 71:9 counting 72:8 117:2 country 142:12 counts 71:4 couple 25:16 38:1 coupled 103:1 course 14:18 courses 84:19 court 45:11 cover 65:3 86:8 covers 105:9 create 68:14 71:17 107:14 108:18 111:4 127:5 created 57:23 69:22,22 80:21 creating 102:20 critical 27:10 cross 12:11 81:23 crux 62:4 cubic 14:24 15:4,13 17:1,9 45:23 57:3 63:5,17 64:16 65:14 73:2,17 74:13 78:1 85:19 86:1,4,7 86:10 94:9 95:21 96:4,20 96:22 97:15 98:22 101:24 103:17 105:15 105:16 106:6 106:23,24 125:3 curious 7:22 curve 111:10 111:11 customary 107:22 cut 34:14 d date 5:3,4 16:16 20:14 21:7 142:16 dated 7:8 12:2 24:3 day 5:18,25 6:9 7:13 8:10 10:9 35:15 103:6,19 103:21 137:11 137:13 days 5:3 6:2,17 6:22 de 9:22 97:21 101:23 deal 83:13 dean 104:19 127:7 debating 44:23 december 7:8,9 17:23 18:6 21:9,18 24:3 25:7 80:19 82:1 decide 4:8 6:3 9:14 46:13 51:20 99:1 103:19 121:13 deciding 44:17 decision 4:6,9 5:5 6:19 9:21 9:23 10:6,7 18:6,9,13 45:18 120:7,11 121:8 132:2,12 [continual - decision] Page 11 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 132:16,24 136:11,25 deems 5:11 defense 89:8 deference 9:22 defined 39:11 95:13 defines 81:19 definitely 69:20 definition 18:13,18 19:19 19:21,22,22,23 33:14 34:3,13 35:10 40:25 41:17,18 46:17 76:15 81:20,25 82:4,10,22 99:7 106:5 128:24 definitions 19:20 20:8,25 34:11 83:6 definitively 17:4,12,17 102:12 denial 132:4 deny 131:25 132:11,16 denying 132:13 depending 14:4 depends 26:2 described 5:11 83:17 116:12 describes 33:19 84:23 description 41:5 85:17 93:22 designed 106:10 detailed 131:23 detection 106:6 determination 4:10,19,19,20 5:5 6:3 16:1 46:1 122:10 133:2 determinations 3:1,6 5:20 determine 17:3 78:18 79:6 88:3 99:17 101:22 133:5 determined 5:17 47:23 determining 93:5 developed 8:7 53:23 developer 26:25 development 26:17,18 30:14 62:11,14,16 64:2 76:18 111:16 127:17 developments 26:22 diagram 43:2 didn’t 82:13 difference 37:11 54:13 74:2 92:9 101:19 differences 91:5 different 4:14 23:4 41:12 42:24,25 53:17 77:10 82:5 94:18 105:20 119:10 differently 5:10 digitize 53:21 digitizing 23:21 direction 65:17 79:9 107:19 directly 6:5 39:14 director 2:1,5 10:22 11:7,19 11:24 12:7,14 12:22 13:4,7 13:22 14:1 19:10,25 21:15 22:3,19,24 23:6,11 24:5,9 24:19,24 25:4 25:10,17,21 26:11 27:22 28:1,16,21 30:7,12 31:1,4 52:3,8,13,17,22 53:2,6,14 54:8 54:19 60:7,11 62:1,9 63:8 73:12,22 75:23 76:1,24 77:18 77:23 79:24 80:4,14 81:11 81:22 82:6,12 82:16,24 83:10 84:1,12,16 91:2,23 93:20 96:21,25 97:4 97:7,13,19 98:2,6,10,13,17 98:21,24 99:24 100:4,8,18,25 101:5 102:17 103:4 104:6,21 110:4 112:1,12 112:17,25 113:7,23 114:16,21,25 115:6,12,16,22 116:1 127:9,13 127:21,25 128:6 133:8 dirt 32:5,10 35:4 41:9 56:22 57:10 58:8,23,24 67:19 68:4 89:25 90:13,16 90:21,24 92:4 92:4,12,17,22 107:13 108:9 108:16 109:13 [decision - dirt] Page 12 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 109:16 118:7 123:25 125:1 dirty 73:24 74:9 disagree 11:17 31:13 50:18 70:24,25 109:2 124:10,13 disagreement 17:20 18:24 78:19 101:7 disagrees 107:25 discuss 11:12 discussed 27:9 discussing 8:2 36:11 discussion 95:8 133:2 dispute 33:13 44:10 50:3,5 52:11 91:16 99:18 110:11 disputes 49:15 disputing 34:25 112:2 124:18 distinct 64:5 78:12 95:13 96:16,18 102:1 distinction 93:17,21 95:7 96:15 distinguishes 100:13 distribute 139:8 disturb 16:14 70:18 76:16 89:4 114:10 disturbance 23:22 39:1 79:18,23 disturbed 16:4 22:23 34:2,18 36:12 46:15 53:13,19 54:1 54:4,5,22 74:17 76:14 77:8 79:16 80:15,20,24 81:2 87:5,6,8 88:6 94:3,7 99:20 110:7,7 110:24 124:10 124:16 129:11 disturbing 15:19 16:21 18:4,7,14,19 19:2,16 22:18 23:17,18 24:22 24:23 27:11 33:14,19 34:3 34:12,13,15,17 37:20,21 39:11 39:15 41:1,7 41:11,19 43:7 43:9,10,13 46:17 51:10,13 51:17 55:3,9 70:15 72:21,25 80:13 81:3,19 82:10 85:17 88:1,11,25 89:11 95:14 113:4,11 114:5 114:13 116:12 116:14,15,16 116:17 118:19 118:19 124:4,6 128:22 133:18 134:4,6 divided 73:17 74:10 dnr 94:6 96:9 document 116:21 122:9 documentation 16:20 documented 80:23 doesn’t 43:12 doing 23:19 31:23 32:6 33:7 41:9,16 54:4 73:13 95:23 100:22 102:23 don’t 72:13 104:13 109:5 126:3 draft 122:9 132:1 drainage 10:9 15:7,15,18 16:24 26:15 38:18 42:7 45:20 49:19 55:2 67:7,8 75:18,21 76:8 78:1,15 83:18 83:18,22,25 84:4,15,20 85:4,21 86:15 89:3 94:17 102:20 104:14 104:15,18 105:6,15,16 108:5 111:6,22 112:20,21 115:19 120:22 121:5,18,19 122:19,20 123:3,8 124:19 124:21,23 125:8,14,18 127:1,16 134:3 134:8 drawing 17:15 24:1 36:17 52:15 53:24 101:16 124:3 drawings 60:5 75:18 140:24 dressed 50:23 dressing 57:15 64:18 79:22,25 80:9,11 86:3,7 106:3,7 [dirt - dressing] Page 13 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com drive 10:5 36:1 driveway 26:1 35:4,20,24 36:8,18 37:14 38:24 42:20,22 43:1,8,23 49:22 52:2,5 52:25 53:8,20 53:24 56:1 57:5 58:8,12 58:17,20,24 62:20 63:6,10 66:6 68:8,14 69:7,10,24 70:5,10,14,15 70:17,18,19,21 71:1,3,3,5,8,10 71:14,16,24 72:7,12 73:10 73:19 74:13,14 74:19 77:6,9 78:5 79:11 86:10 91:22 92:20 99:2,14 101:10 104:2 104:18 105:11 105:14 106:2 107:8,10 110:13 111:3 111:24 117:12 117:14,17,19 117:20 123:14 123:15 124:25 driveways 71:25 78:21 86:4,9 101:21 134:17 driving 32:22 81:2 drop 60:24 drops 111:16 drove 32:12 50:23 56:15,16 80:17 ducts 32:9 due 115:4 138:10 139:7 dug 92:18 dunst 2:14,15 3:7,13,14 7:10 7:15 8:4,21,22 13:15 24:14 29:5 137:23 138:2 139:21 140:9,14 dwell 133:13 e e 97:5,6 105:23 112:20 133:4 142:1 earlier 43:4 137:12 early 23:17 easily 54:15 63:17 easy 66:2 75:13 106:7 effect 27:20 eight 74:6 eighteen 15:3 26:20 either 77:2 138:19 elevated 67:19 elevation 59:18 60:5 62:21 63:14 68:1 69:6 74:2 99:13 110:18 elevations 37:2 37:6,11 58:11 61:14 65:23 74:23 118:8 121:4 123:25 eliminate 52:11 79:15 email 20:10 21:10,13 22:1 22:8 24:2 emails 8:8 12:13 23:7 37:5 119:17 embroiled 15:9 empower 4:7 encourage 11:25 ended 23:19 65:6 111:20 ends 103:23 enforce 5:13 enforceable 5:9 enforcement 4:11 engineer 16:6 17:15 31:22 37:3 62:7 66:8 95:19 125:9 engineered 35:15 75:18 engineering 29:1 engineers 111:6,11,12 ensure 8:7 26:13 ensuring 84:6 entertain 93:9 entire 32:14 43:5 51:2 68:22 95:25 105:24 entirety 82:20 entitled 120:8 envisioning 133:1 equipment 32:17 61:12 67:18 68:5 69:23 eric 4:1 6:12,18 6:24 7:2,5,17 9:11,18,24 19:8,12 20:2 25:12,15,19 26:5 45:24 46:22 47:7 83:1,4,12,16 84:3,18,25 [drive - eric] Page 14 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 85:7 90:7,17 100:12,20 101:2 112:5,8 112:14,19 113:3,9,18 114:12,18,23 115:2,10,14,18 119:3 122:16 126:6,9,16,20 130:12,17,22 132:7,22 134:21 135:1 136:21 137:4,9 137:15,18,21 139:6,12 140:2 140:5,11 erosion 23:15 36:15 38:18 41:8 43:15,16 45:18 50:6 51:13 56:20 76:8 78:13 81:5,9,14 88:10,11 93:14 94:10,12 96:6 102:5 105:8 111:24 116:14 123:4 125:18 126:13,14 134:5 error 4:9 es 31:18 especially 17:14 essentially 40:10 80:9 93:13 97:18 103:3 124:7 et 14:6,16 94:9 99:3 103:2,2 105:6 134:18 evaluate 79:17 111:2 127:15 evened 50:23 evening 76:12 events 126:11 everybody 31:15 36:9 129:24 130:3,8 139:3 everybody's 24:10 106:16 everyone's 66:20 everything's 131:6 evidence 9:13 76:11 evolving 31:11 exactly 42:14 47:4 68:19 69:14 117:7 124:15 example 28:3 67:16 127:4,8 excavated 90:20 91:9 116:25 excavating 94:9 excavation 33:1 exceed 39:8 exceeded 16:12 39:7 exceeding 81:6 85:25 exception 51:19 55:11,12 78:20 79:23 80:11 97:9,17 97:22,24 98:18 99:1 101:23 103:16 exceptions 4:17 34:21 38:20,24 39:3 44:21 47:21 49:18 53:9,15 64:6,7 70:6 74:14 76:25 80:1 91:17 97:10,14 134:17 excess 63:18 exclude 43:23 52:4 53:24 57:5,6 78:23 78:23 excluding 52:2 excuse 134:19 executed 123:24 exempt 35:21 36:1 50:16 55:25 66:6 70:14 72:2 78:6,8 86:11 86:12 101:20 106:8 117:25 117:25 exempted 72:9 72:11 78:10 79:6,12 exemption 50:14 59:25 71:7 75:12 86:3,18 exemptions 35:1,2 37:13 37:14 38:1 42:15,16 51:22 55:17,22 70:4 70:5 73:7 75:4 78:21 86:2 87:3 88:4 90:3 101:8 105:23 109:4,4,11 113:16 118:14 exhibit 52:15 exist 80:12 110:15 existed 70:16 110:18 111:7 existence 102:4 existing 17:5 54:16 59:20 60:14,16,25 [eric - existing] Page 15 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 62:14 63:15 69:6 74:3 91:3 91:6 101:18 expand 26:1 71:12 104:1 110:13 expanded 111:3 expect 119:12 experience 27:2 explain 53:3 explained 16:5 66:13 explaining 39:9 105:5 117:6 exposed 108:21 109:18 extended 59:18 exterior 25:22 eye 16:25 46:6 63:4 f f 142:1 face 114:14 faces 109:18,20 fact 79:15 92:20 124:13 facts 76:4,6 119:20 factual 44:19 46:14,18 49:15 50:3 52:11 100:2 factually 22:22 120:3,4 failure 5:12 fair 20:4 120:8 120:15 fairly 123:7 fall 19:6 32:21 91:17 far 13:5 67:1 fast 17:22 fault 54:24 favor 8:1 140:3 140:19 fee 26:8 27:8 61:24 75:16 81:13 feel 112:6 131:5 138:18,18 feels 108:3,5 fees 104:11 feet 14:18 15:21 16:4,9 16:14,22 22:17 24:17 32:1 33:4,18,20,22 33:24 34:19 37:16,18,19 39:8 41:10 42:11,13 43:17 43:18,19,25 44:6,7,11 45:22 46:15,21 49:24,25 50:5 50:21,22 51:18 52:1,19,25 53:13 55:4,10 56:2,4,10,11 58:13,22 60:24 65:11 67:2,2 69:3,5,7,7 71:2 71:3,14 72:21 73:2,14,14,15 73:17 74:16,17 76:14,17,20 80:12 81:6 85:15,18,20,25 86:2 87:4,5 88:2,5 94:6,8 94:19 95:15,20 95:20 96:2,5 96:20 99:12,12 99:20 103:11 107:1,2,4,4,6 110:21 113:6 113:13 114:10 124:4,6,9,10,17 125:3,4 129:12 133:19 134:4,6 fence 58:12,18 94:13 fiber 94:12 field 14:25 figure 103:15 103:16 file 81:13 filed 5:2 fill 14:22,23,24 15:4,13 16:13 17:1,7,10,14 18:23 27:4 35:3,12,19,22 35:24,25 36:2 36:5,6,13,20,21 38:15,23,23 42:18 45:22,23 46:2 47:23 51:14 55:12 56:5,19 57:1,2 57:4,7,12,16 58:25 61:3 63:5,23 64:7 64:16,25 65:6 65:15 66:14 69:20,23 71:2 71:4,9,25 72:6 72:11,24 73:10 73:16,25 74:5 74:15 76:9 77:19 78:2,5 78:10,16 79:5 79:12 83:17,21 84:6,7,9 90:10 90:13 91:10,13 91:15 92:10,10 92:11,11,12 95:16 98:12,14 99:2,11,13 101:3,12 102:3 102:7,10,13,16 102:25 104:4 106:2,4,9,20 110:7,8 114:19 117:15,21 122:23,25 123:13,14 124:18,24 129:10,18 [existing - fill] Page 16 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 134:1,8 filled 35:3 45:23 filling 33:20 37:18 39:8 72:2 83:21 105:9,10,11,25 116:5,10,16 128:23 filsinger 2:7,11 2:12,25 3:8,10 3:11 6:10,14 7:9 8:3,13,16 8:18,19 9:9 10:4,16 11:11 12:6 13:17 25:14 29:3,7 29:10,17 30:10 31:3,6 40:6 48:10,16 49:1 64:13,21 67:12 75:25 83:3 92:25 93:3 110:3 112:7 130:14,18 131:2,7,13,16 131:21 132:13 137:6,17,19,25 138:6 139:4 140:12 final 37:6 118:8 123:25 129:7 136:25 finally 32:20 find 23:1 44:22 87:2 fine 66:20 70:2 89:21 104:10 108:7 finish 80:3 finished 89:14 89:17 121:3 124:22 firm 31:19 first 10:14 14:12 16:4 31:17 39:7 63:13 74:2 105:13 116:9 116:10 117:11 five 12:9 32:16 86:6 122:1 flipped 34:18 floating 93:24 floor 63:14 74:2 flow 27:13 28:4 65:4,18 75:6,6 76:18 108:5 flower 86:20 flowing 64:1 96:10 flows 62:13 126:2,10 127:17 focus 54:24 follow 5:13 6:23 27:17 34:12 118:5 followed 60:15 following 4:25 foot 35:22,24 39:1 61:15 67:1 68:2 71:14 73:16,25 74:5 88:12 94:3,23 105:18 105:19 107:2 footage 67:9 106:22,25 117:2 footer 68:3 footprint 60:18 101:13,21 103:18 foregoing 142:4 forgetting 43:8 form 15:17 formulate 122:9 forth 8:9 46:19 119:17 forward 17:22 79:14 99:7 found 13:16,17 16:1,19 23:24 27:19 foundation 59:4 62:21 108:11,21 four 16:1 74:7 74:7 79:2,3 99:10,10 109:24 122:1 fox 1:11 10:7 10:10 42:6 108:1 109:1 frame 40:13 framing 40:14 frankly 78:18 114:1 free 138:18 friends 121:11 front 13:13 20:14 21:6 38:4 44:4 58:16 65:9 69:5,14 89:21 full 91:12 fundamental 44:10,16 50:20 fundamentally 131:24 132:2 further 4:24 39:9 132:18 future 79:14 122:13 g garage 35:23 36:18 58:21 59:11 63:14 69:25 72:8 74:5,6 91:7,8 109:18,23 116:7,8 garages 40:16 40:16 59:5 [fill - garages] Page 17 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com garbage 45:11 garbled 44:18 garden 28:4 gardens 86:20 gears 57:1 general 49:21 136:4 generic 39:10 getting 39:6 51:6 107:5 112:6 giggles 53:25 gim 53:20 gis 23:21 91:5 give 11:3 30:3 36:24 47:10 66:9 71:7 104:12 108:23 120:4,5 122:7 given 8:7 103:12 136:22 gives 61:3 103:8 104:12 giving 120:14 go 4:24 11:17 11:25 14:10 15:25 17:19,24 27:5 34:6 35:6 39:10 54:11 58:18 67:2 90:8 92:1 100:19 105:22 105:23 107:9 114:1,1 120:24 121:14 125:6 125:12 126:3 129:6,15 132:25 god 11:5 30:5 goes 68:7,8 going 4:3 8:9 16:8 21:17 26:22 31:16,23 32:13 34:8,8,9 36:25 44:19 45:12 60:19,20 65:10 66:8 67:15 69:19 73:24 74:4,20 79:18 84:8,9 86:8 89:13 93:23 94:15,23 95:3,17,21 96:7,12 107:10 107:11 108:17 108:19,23 110:21 113:20 114:9 117:11 121:1,9,24 122:5,21 124:23 125:11 126:23 129:10 129:17 136:22 good 29:21 31:19 58:19 77:5 105:5 gps 61:12 grade 27:11 31:25 35:2 42:13,16 56:4 58:11,19 59:4 59:10,19,20 61:5 62:20 67:25 68:12 69:17,18 70:2 72:7 89:13,18 89:20,21 104:17 106:14 108:11,15 117:11,12 126:7,19,23 127:5 128:9,13 graded 89:20 117:13 grades 17:5,6 33:16 40:21 60:20 61:1,9 61:10 101:17 grading 10:9 15:18 16:24 26:15 33:18,19 34:19,20 35:13 35:17 36:1,13 36:21 37:12,18 37:22,23 38:17 38:25 39:7,8 39:15,17 41:6 41:7,14 42:4,7 42:10,18 45:20 48:21 49:18 51:14 55:1 56:19 57:23 61:13 64:25 65:16 66:5 73:4 75:3,5 76:8 77:24,25 78:14 84:23 85:16,23,25 86:14,19 88:10 88:15,16,22,23 89:1,15,23 94:17 103:25 105:9,10,12,24 106:1,1,4,9,9 106:20,24 107:8,15,16,18 108:4 110:19 111:6 112:21 116:5,8,10,16 116:19,23 117:3,21 124:19 125:21 126:22 127:16 128:23 133:3 grady 2:17,18 3:4,16,17 8:6 8:24,25 11:14 11:21 20:7,13 20:19,24 21:5 21:10,14,19 22:11,15,21 23:3,10,25 24:7,12,16,21 25:1,8 26:9 27:16,24 29:13 32:24 38:14,17 38:21 39:4 40:8,13,22 42:2,21 43:22 44:3,9 45:4,7 [garbage - grady] Page 18 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 45:13,17 46:5 48:1,4,9,14 49:6,12 50:7 50:12,17 51:9 51:15,24 52:6 52:10,16,20,24 53:4,12 54:18 54:21,23 55:18 55:24 56:13,17 56:25 57:14,22 58:6,14 59:1,9 59:13,17,24 63:3 64:8,11 67:14,23 68:9 68:21 69:2,12 69:15 70:23 71:13,20 72:4 72:15,19,23 73:8,20 79:21 80:2,6 81:9 82:3,9,14,21 83:15 84:14,21 85:1,11 86:22 86:25 87:10,13 87:17 89:16,24 90:4,15,19 91:18 92:3,8 92:16,21,24 93:11 97:24 98:8,12 99:22 100:1,6,11 102:11,24 104:3,8,24 105:2 107:12 107:23 108:3 110:1 112:4 119:8 120:18 121:15 123:9 124:2 126:24 127:11,19,23 128:2,10 129:23 130:2,7 130:19 131:11 131:14,18,22 132:5,11,15,20 133:15 135:13 135:18,22 136:12 138:11 138:16,25 139:10,14,19 141:4 grass 32:21,23 34:1,7,14,22 41:16,22 44:7 44:8 50:16 51:23 56:16,16 65:22 118:4 gravel 36:7 42:19 58:25 67:20 68:4 71:8 72:8 92:17,19,22 105:11 117:14 graveled 70:11 great 117:5 greater 99:1 110:22 grey 43:4 greyish 24:18 gritty 106:19 ground 62:12 110:23 grounds 62:24 133:17 grow 33:12 grown 65:22 guess 31:18 83:23 138:12 gutted 40:10 guy 104:11 guys 32:12 44:18 105:5 h half 15:3 26:20 61:15 67:1 hand 10:18 29:22 handle 121:10 happen 104:20 happened 103:9 happy 20:5 54:9 120:25 132:23 hard 78:17 129:10 hauling 83:21 84:5,9 head 73:13 heading 85:24 hear 4:8 5:24 6:4 112:7 138:5 heard 45:25 49:16 55:7 56:6 80:7 123:1,5 129:24 130:3 hearing 4:16 50:1 93:8 138:9 heart 77:11 122:18 help 11:4 14:5 30:5 52:7 132:1 helps 12:21 48:1 102:20 hesitate 119:10 hey 63:22 94:14 95:14 100:21 high 65:11 84:7 higher 35:23 58:17 59:10,12 66:25 67:10 68:25 69:5,7 highlight 113:21 hill 65:8 hire 104:11 history 15:22 31:17 hold 105:21 holding 28:13 hole 92:17,18 home 30:14,15 39:19 95:1,2 [grady - home] Page 19 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com hoping 53:16 hours 129:15 house 35:5,6,8 40:2,2,3,9,23 44:14 57:17,20 57:23,25 58:4 58:5 59:14,18 60:25 66:24 67:17 69:3,20 73:5,21 74:3 74:23 75:14 90:1 91:3,6,20 91:21 104:18 107:4,9,14,21 108:12,17 109:14,17,19 109:23,25 111:23 114:8 116:6 hvac 67:17 68:4 69:23 hyde 142:3 hypothetically 71:2 94:25 110:17 i idea 44:23 49:8 69:17 93:7 identifies 93:23 identify 77:19 83:23 95:3 111:12 ignore 49:22 image 80:21 images 22:25 54:10 immaterial 84:5 impact 15:14 27:12 28:11 63:25 79:19 95:4 impacting 26:13 27:7 63:24 impacts 28:9 impervious 110:10,12,20 110:25 111:5,8 111:9,13,18 115:8 116:3,4 116:7 impetus 14:25 implied 36:3 important 20:4 31:15 impossible 36:23 125:9 improperly 47:9 inch 68:3 inches 59:3,19 60:22,23 63:15 68:23,25 69:21 74:1,4,6,7,8 79:2,3 99:10 99:10 108:10 108:10,20 109:18,22 include 27:3 37:8 46:20 53:8 54:3 57:13 123:13 included 14:11 23:8 36:18 43:6 56:1 57:15 107:6 includes 36:4 52:25 99:1 including 24:17 inclusion 50:18 50:19 incorporated 20:20,25 77:3 136:14 incorporation 135:10,14,17 135:23 136:4 independent 133:22 136:15 indiscernible 3:1,5,8 8:5 9:9 10:21,24,24 11:15 12:3,9 12:15 13:10,13 13:20,23 14:2 14:3,15,20 16:17,24 18:8 19:5,7,11 20:12,17 21:4 22:5,12,14,16 23:13,15,21 24:15 25:25 26:10,14,16 29:11,12,14,25 30:9,11,16,17 30:19,23 31:15 31:17,18,18,19 31:21,24 32:1 32:2,4,7,11 33:6,10,11,16 33:21,23,25 34:9,10,21,22 34:24 35:1,12 35:16,25 37:3 37:7,15,22,24 38:8 39:5,6,9 39:13,16,16,24 39:25 40:5,15 40:18,21 41:5 41:18,20 42:1 42:19,20 43:14 43:20,21 44:7 45:2 47:19,23 47:24 48:8,10 48:12,13,20,25 49:4,5,7,9,10 49:13 50:11,15 51:1,5,6,7,25 52:9 53:7 54:7 56:10,11,22,23 57:10,12,25 58:1,1,4,13,17 58:20,24 59:16 59:23 60:8,14 61:11 62:3 64:12,15,19,20 65:1,2,5,19,23 65:25 66:3,4 [hoping - indiscernible] Page 20 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 66:12,15,16,18 66:19,20,21,23 67:2,3,6,10,13 68:7,8,20 69:1 69:8,10,11,14 70:5,8,22 71:21,24,25 72:1,3,10 74:11,22,22 75:1,15,17,22 76:3,4,6,18,23 77:22 79:20 81:4,8 83:2,3 84:24 85:4,22 86:4,11,18,20 86:24 87:12 88:13 89:7 90:6,9 91:4,17 92:1,7,15,20,23 93:22 100:14 100:15 103:11 103:13 105:4,6 105:14,18,23 106:10,11,17 107:1,3 108:1 109:23,25 110:3 111:12 111:20,21,22 111:23,24 112:3 114:2,11 116:11,15 117:5,7,9 118:7,20,21,22 118:24 120:22 121:20 123:23 123:23 124:12 124:13 125:1,6 125:11 126:1,1 126:3,15 127:2 127:4,18 128:9 128:14,19,25 129:3,5,13,17 130:1 131:10 131:19,23 134:5,25 135:2 137:7,10,16 138:3,5,24 139:5,8,13 140:10,24,25 141:2 individual 14:15 individuals 15:17 infill 28:7 95:5 116:2 inflow 26:23 inform 5:20 information 12:8 16:9 17:8 17:11 21:20 27:18 49:16 initially 16:2 62:25 instance 101:23 intended 77:2 intent 86:18 99:12 intentionally 77:4 interplay 99:23 interpret 119:19 interpretation 34:16 46:11,19 64:14 102:15 interpreted 47:10 interpreting 41:2,4 interrelated 134:11,13 interrelation 136:18 interrupt 32:25 invite 138:9 involved 15:10 involvement 19:24 issue 5:3 18:3 28:15 31:11 46:13,14,14,18 81:15 87:20 92:2 103:10 122:19 123:6 issued 16:11 28:14 61:6 issues 28:22 44:20,20 76:3 76:7 84:20 it'll 60:18 item 2:25 4:25 10:5 i’m 25:14 38:2 54:9 77:7 125:9 126:16 135:16 j job 76:5 105:5 117:5 118:25 124:23 judge 45:10,16 judicial 18:1 juncture 78:18 justification 132:1 justified 116:11 k keep 75:10 keeping 95:25 keeps 65:3 kept 18:14 86:15 111:1 kick 96:6 kicked 16:23 kind 41:25 68:14 79:22 127:3,12 128:3 128:4 know 6:17 11:16 22:1 28:24 30:21 31:9 32:12 37:9 44:16,18 45:7,12 46:12 50:2 52:6 57:10 61:11 62:23 67:19 69:15 72:14,16 [indiscernible - know] Page 21 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 75:1 79:13 83:20 86:9 94:4 101:15 103:23 108:5,7 108:22 109:2 114:22 118:15 118:23 119:5,6 121:17 122:12 122:13,23 130:8 131:23 133:12 l lack 18:25 28:11 121:18 laid 96:16 lake 10:5 114:15 land 14:16 15:19 16:21 18:4,7,14,18 19:2,16 22:17 24:22,23 33:14 33:17,18 34:2 34:3,11,13,16 36:12 37:20,21 39:1,10,15 40:25 41:6,11 41:19 43:7,9 43:10,13 46:16 51:10,12,17 54:2,5 55:3,9 72:21,25 79:23 80:13 81:1,19 82:10 85:17 87:25 88:25 89:11 95:15 113:4,11 114:5 114:10,13 116:12,14,15 116:16,17 118:19,19 124:4,6 128:21 133:18 134:3 landscape 75:13 landscaping 34:22 35:5 50:14,19 language 113:14 118:17 large 80:19 larson 4:1 6:12 6:18,24 7:2,5 7:17 9:11,18 9:24 19:8,12 20:2,9,17 21:21 25:12,15 25:19 26:5 29:15,18 30:20 45:24 46:22 47:7 83:1,4,12 83:16 84:3,18 84:25 85:7 90:7,17 100:12 100:20 101:2 102:6 112:5,8 112:14,19 113:3,9,18 114:12,18,23 115:2,10,14,18 119:3 122:16 126:6,9,16,20 130:12,17,22 132:7,22 134:21 135:1 136:21 137:4,9 137:15,18,21 139:6,12 140:2 140:5,11 lawsuits 15:9 15:10 63:21 106:16 leave 42:22 100:13 108:20 ledanski 142:3 left 40:14 109:17,17,20 legal 44:20 46:13,13 76:3 87:15 100:1,3 116:20 138:23 142:11 legally 120:2,4 length 122:4 letter 20:10 21:11 letterhead 12:17 level 41:22 59:12 levels 127:6 lies 95:7 96:14 101:25 likely 18:22 82:19 111:16 limit 5:18 6:1 limitations 4:23 line 39:7 58:12 58:18 60:25 116:9 linear 94:8 listed 38:2 86:5 literal 107:3 little 65:8 67:5 89:9 112:6 live 124:8 lives 121:14 living 30:21 location 77:9 77:10 83:21 logic 68:22 70:6 89:12 119:1 125:2 logical 66:11 69:4 logically 63:13 logs 94:11,12 long 44:6 73:14 106:8 longer 5:18 look 5:15 23:1 27:14 28:9 31:25 35:7 36:17 37:9 38:10 43:1 46:11 53:18 57:24 58:10 62:13 64:1 66:7,8 73:3 [know - look] Page 22 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 74:24 76:10,11 78:11 79:1 80:16 84:22 88:17,21 96:9 104:13 107:18 108:6 110:5,9 110:9 111:7,15 122:10 looked 21:3 23:13 43:3 45:5 57:18 82:19,22 looking 14:12 24:1 26:12 46:9 63:12 74:12 88:17 105:15 114:3 123:12 137:14 looks 12:18 40:4,22 63:4 67:18 68:10 lose 34:8 lost 107:12 110:6 lot 43:5 95:1 105:18,19 106:15,24 111:18 115:9 116:3 117:4 119:16 125:5,8 125:25 126:8 127:5 lots 55:1 112:21 low 32:3 75:10 lower 58:5 127:6 lowest 50:10 m madam 4:1 madame 25:12 made 4:10,19 5:19 25:24 42:3 45:17 46:2 63:3 69:12 95:12 97:11 99:22 main 40:2 48:6 maintain 105:22 majority 131:1 make 4:18 8:11 28:10 31:16 35:16 48:20 56:21 58:5 59:23 64:9,19 64:22,22,23 66:10 68:11 71:19,20 73:7 75:13 77:15 85:5 87:13,17 89:4 93:9 96:8 109:6 118:24 119:2,20 120:7 120:11 121:11 128:16 131:4 131:17 136:11 136:25 makes 36:16 56:21,24 92:8 118:1 126:5 135:6 making 5:4 97:17 121:8 manager 2:3 6:8 10:8,20 11:6 13:1,9,12 20:11,16,22 21:2,8,12,23 129:4,8,25 map 60:16,17 march 79:8 mark 2:17,18 3:4,16,17 8:6 8:24,25 11:14 11:21 20:7,13 20:19,24 21:5 21:10,14,19 22:11,15,21 23:3,10,25 24:7,12,16,21 25:1,8 26:9 27:16,24 29:13 29:15,18 30:20 32:24 38:14,17 38:21 39:4 40:8,13,22 42:2,21 43:22 44:3,9 45:4,7 45:13,17 46:5 48:1,4,9,14 49:6,12 50:7 50:12,17 51:9 51:15,24 52:6 52:10,16,20,24 53:4,12 54:18 54:23 55:18,24 56:13,17,25 57:14,22 58:6 58:14 59:1,9 59:13,17,24 63:3 64:8,11 67:12,14,23 68:9,21 69:2 69:12,15 70:23 71:13,20 72:4 72:15,19,23 73:8,20 79:21 80:2,6 81:9 82:3,9,14,21 83:15 84:14,21 85:1,11 86:22 86:25 87:10,13 87:17 89:16,24 90:4,15,19 91:18 92:3,8 92:16,21,24 93:3,11 97:24 98:8,12 99:22 100:1,6,11 102:11,24 104:3,8,24 105:2 107:12 107:23 108:3 110:1 112:4 119:8 120:18 121:15 123:9 124:2 126:24 [look - mark] Page 23 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 127:11,19,23 128:2,10 129:23 130:2,7 130:19 131:11 131:14,18,22 132:5,11,15,20 133:15 135:13 135:18,22 136:12 138:11 138:16,25 139:10,14,19 141:4 match 95:9 materials 5:15 matter 4:4 11:3 18:1 30:3 33:25 35:14 43:12,18 50:9 62:4 77:11 80:10 92:4 129:16 mean 19:16,19 27:24 31:21 36:8 41:4 44:3 51:19 70:17 75:14 92:2 93:7,9,16 100:13 119:14 121:20 126:4 129:1 135:18 meaning 85:15 111:17 means 86:12 97:23 meat 78:4 meeting 2:7 7:25 120:6 136:25 137:3,5 137:8 member 2:15 2:18,21,24 3:3 3:4,7,14,17,20 3:23 6:21 7:1,4 7:7,10,12,15,20 8:4,6,15,22,25 9:3,6,16,19 11:14,21 12:12 12:16,18,20,24 13:3,11,15,21 13:24 20:7,13 20:19,24 21:5 21:10,14,19,25 22:9,11,15,21 23:3,10,25 24:7,12,14,16 24:21 25:1,6,8 26:9 27:16,24 28:12,20 29:5 29:8,9,13 32:24 37:25 38:7,9,11,14,16 38:17,19,21 39:2,4,18,22 40:1,8,11,13,19 40:22,24 41:21 42:2,21 43:22 44:3,9,15 45:3 45:4,7,10,13,15 45:17 46:3,5,7 47:8,13,16,18 47:20,25 48:1 48:3,4,7,9,11 48:14,22 49:6 49:11,12 50:7 50:12,17 51:2 51:9,15,24 52:6,10,16,20 52:24 53:4,10 53:12 54:18,23 55:18,24 56:13 56:17,25 57:14 57:22 58:6,14 59:1,9,13,17,24 60:3,10 61:16 61:23 62:5,22 63:3 64:8,11 67:14,23 68:9 68:21 69:2,12 69:15 70:9,13 70:23 71:11,13 71:18,20 72:4 72:15,19,23 73:8,20 77:14 77:21 79:21 80:2,6 81:9,18 82:3,9,14,21 83:15 84:14,21 85:1,11 86:22 86:25 87:2,10 87:13,17,19,24 88:8,18 89:2 89:16,24 90:4 90:15,19,23 91:18 92:3,8 92:16,21,24 93:2,6,11 96:19,23 97:2 97:6,12,16,21 97:24 98:4,8 98:12,15,19,23 99:22 100:1,6 100:11 102:11 102:24 104:3,8 104:24 105:2 107:12,23 108:3 110:1 112:4 115:24 116:24 117:8 119:8,13,25 120:18 121:6 121:15 123:9 124:2 125:13 125:19,23 126:24 127:11 127:19,23 128:2,10,15 129:1,6,19,23 130:2,7,10,19 130:24 131:3,5 131:9,11,14,18 131:20,22 132:3,5,9,11,15 132:17,20 133:15 135:3 135:13,16,18 135:20,22,24 136:12,17 137:2,13,23 138:2,4,8,11,15 [mark - member] Page 24 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 138:16,25 139:10,14,19 139:21,25 140:9,14,16,23 141:3,4 memo 12:1 14:10,14 15:22 22:2 23:2 76:2 78:17 96:17 99:5 memorandum 12:9 memory 15:23 21:18 merits 120:13 131:4 mess 44:18 118:3 messed 32:23 33:8 messing 41:9 middle 127:6 mind 31:7 102:2 107:16 111:1 119:14 mineola 142:14 minimis 97:22 101:23 minimum 33:20,22 43:19 43:20 50:5,10 56:10 94:3 124:16 minor 73:3 86:14,19 105:24 106:1,4 106:24 107:14 107:15,18 minute 34:18 35:11,21 57:2 130:8 minutes 3:5 misspoke 21:16 mistake 56:14 mistaken 28:23 77:7 mitigate 106:11 model 94:6 modify 122:11 moment 19:11 28:25 45:19 49:23 113:20 money 26:8 monitor 117:15 months 5:17 8:9 17:22 66:3 66:3 137:3 moot 77:16 81:10,12 83:13 87:21 100:15 102:25 103:24 123:5 motion 3:25 8:11,14 9:8 93:9 120:13 128:16 131:17 131:24,24 132:2,15 136:23 139:18 140:12 mouths 6:6 move 29:16 41:22 51:8 99:6 113:21 130:4 139:20 139:21 140:14 moved 77:7 123:24 moving 79:13 mud 32:14,17 32:25 33:8 51:3,5 municipals 10:11 n n 142:1 naked 16:25 46:6 63:4 name 10:19 29:22 119:23 nancy 2:7,11 2:12,25 3:8,10 3:11 6:10,14 7:9 8:3,13,16 8:18,19 9:9 10:4,16 11:11 12:6 13:17 25:14 29:3,7 29:10,17 30:10 31:3,6 40:6 48:10,16 49:1 64:13,21 67:12 75:25 83:3 92:25 93:3 110:3 112:7 130:14,18 131:2,7,13,16 131:21 132:13 137:6,17,19,25 138:6 139:4 140:12 native 110:25 near 12:24 13:12 107:5 necessarily 123:3 128:3 necessary 8:11 71:17 need 6:10 18:16 28:23 29:19 30:21 34:19 35:12 36:13 45:25 46:2,11 49:15 58:7 60:6 62:7,19 65:21 66:1 74:9 75:16 94:10 95:16 96:3 98:14 99:14 105:13 117:16,21 118:16 121:13 124:18,24 126:22 127:20 129:10,18 133:13 139:18 needed 27:4,4,5 66:24 68:11 89:14 102:7 105:10 112:15 [member - needed] Page 25 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 118:11 122:11 needs 45:20,22 121:17,17 neighbor 27:7 65:4 106:16 117:24 neighbor's 68:15,18 75:9 126:4 neighborhoods 108:20 neighboring 15:14 27:20 28:5 63:22,24 79:19 95:4,18 neighbors 15:11 27:12 28:10 31:19 66:15,16,17 69:19 84:10 89:22 104:25 107:21 108:18 never 51:6 99:12 new 39:24 40:3 40:15,23 42:9 58:20,24 60:19 61:1 72:7 75:14 90:12 92:4,11 94:25 95:2 112:23 113:1 114:7 139:18 nice 76:5 nitty 106:19 nobody's 85:19 nonsense 36:22 37:24 normal 60:15 north 10:23 note 78:17 99:5 110:2 noted 76:2 94:20 99:13 102:6 notes 114:2 notice 103:6,22 noticed 131:12 131:15 november 17:23 80:18 novo 9:22 nuisance 84:10 number 3:1 14:7 16:23 23:7 37:19 47:11 50:11 102:14,16 108:10 111:11 111:11,16 ny 142:14 o o 142:1 o'clock 137:16 137:22 object 5:25 objection 7:23 138:12 observation 23:14 observations 23:23 obstructing 84:19 obtain 11:23 14:23 17:13 45:20 81:12 obtained 81:24 obviously 85:14 113:16 122:3,15 136:13 occupancy 28:13 october 80:18 140:6,8 142:16 offer 120:16,19 offered 75:15 office 18:3 official 4:11 oh 2:3 7:1 12:6 25:14 139:19 141:3 okay 6:14 7:1 7:21 11:11 12:6,16,20 13:3,11 21:14 22:10 26:5 28:20 38:11,19 39:22 40:11 47:8,16 48:11 48:22 49:11 51:15 58:14 61:3,8 62:5 72:19 73:1 79:4,9 81:4 86:25 87:1 88:8 89:7 93:25 94:23 98:16 101:17 103:14 104:10 114:11 118:6 125:19 126:20 127:22 131:21 139:3,24 141:3 old 7:8 40:9 92:4,11 109:16 142:12 once 4:4 61:5 128:14 one's 112:2 ones 76:10 ongoing 91:15 open 37:5,6 operations 83:22 opinion 18:19 19:4 73:9 79:10 82:1 87:16 113:13 123:16 132:18 opportunity 54:21 103:8,12 136:24 139:1 opposed 71:6 140:22 order 2:8 4:9 5:5 25:25 54:5 [needed - order] Page 26 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 99:14 ordinance 4:12 14:22 15:1,12 17:7 18:23 19:3 38:23 48:2 81:8 83:17 84:6 94:6 101:3,4 102:3,5 114:3 ordinances 64:4,5 original 70:2 72:21 117:13 originally 70:10 outdated 7:14 7:16 outside 53:19 64:17,17 69:3 113:16 overall 61:13 overlap 101:3 oversimplifyi... 93:16 own 64:6 106:5 owner 15:2,9 79:19 95:18 owners 15:14 26:14,24 63:22 63:25 95:4 103:7,11 p p.m. 140:6,8 package 37:2 packet 7:3,7,11 8:8 12:3,8 23:8 25:9 45:6 48:5 48:15,17 141:5 packets 24:4 page 7:6,18 11:18,18 12:2 12:4,9 14:14 14:21 15:25 38:5 65:3 116:10 119:21 122:1,2 pages 11:16 paid 43:15 61:18 111:25 paint 108:21 parameters 41:13 parcel 91:14 96:11 parcels 15:8 part 18:25 53:16,17 57:11 78:6 114:3 135:15 particular 15:11 77:6 78:13 96:13 115:4,4,25 133:5,9 particularly 80:18 110:12 parties 18:12 parts 41:6 54:2 108:11 passed 21:21 68:16 past 28:2 80:17 patio 35:4 36:4 36:18 37:14 38:25 42:22 43:2,8,23 46:20 49:23 52:2,5 53:1,8 53:19,25 56:1 57:5 62:20 78:8 99:3,15 101:11 110:14 111:4 116:11 117:22 123:14 123:15 patios 71:24 78:21 86:3,8 101:21 134:17 pay 61:20,24 75:15 104:10 120:25 paying 35:14 111:20 percent 41:14 percentage 111:13 perfect 117:7 perform 26:16 performing 14:16 period 86:13 103:22 permission 118:10,11 permit 5:4 10:10 14:15,23 15:19 16:5,10 16:18 18:16 26:8 27:4,4,5,8 27:17 28:13 31:20 33:16 35:1,12,13,17 36:1,3,14,15,21 36:23 37:12,23 37:24 38:12,15 38:18,18,23 39:6 42:4,6,17 43:15 45:19,20 45:22 46:2 49:2,4,19 50:14 51:14 55:3,15,20,21 56:6,9,19,20 57:2 60:4 61:6 61:19,24 62:19 63:19 64:7 65:21 66:2,2 66:13 68:19 72:21 74:15 75:16 78:3,16 81:6 85:15 86:12 87:7 88:1,10,12,15 89:3,15,17 93:14,15,23 94:10 95:16 96:3 98:1,14 101:4 102:7,10 102:13,25 [order - permit] Page 27 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 104:11 105:7,8 105:10,12,13 105:16 106:10 106:18,20 107:8 108:14 109:5,7,8,10,11 111:21 112:15 112:16,20 113:5,10,12,25 114:6,9,19 116:19 117:6 117:13,14,16 117:18,22 118:2,10,14 120:23,25 122:23,25 123:4,13,23 124:1,14,18,24 125:18 126:13 126:14,22 129:11,18 133:11 134:1,3 134:5,8,8 permits 11:22 12:10 14:7 26:6 31:14,14 38:15 75:19 76:7 77:17 88:14 105:6 106:15 116:13 permitted 71:25 123:22 permitting 15:5 16:5 102:22 person 79:1 132:6 134:11 personal 23:14 personally 11:16 121:24 122:4 perspective 15:15 28:19,24 29:1 96:9 103:25 104:4 134:10 135:7 pervious 110:10 111:13 petition 14:6 46:23 petitioner 47:1 petitioner's 46:23 phosphorous 96:10 photograph 24:1 67:25 photographs 25:2 67:16 phrase 113:10 physically 134:13 pick 46:10 picked 89:10 picture 40:17 58:16 pictures 13:2 16:19 22:7,8 23:17,23 35:6 59:22 80:16,20 80:24,24 109:22 piece 6:11 134:12 pile 90:21 piled 32:7 pipe 95:20 pit 32:14 51:3 pitch 86:16 place 14:23 15:5 24:23 26:21 36:5 75:7 78:1 98:11 109:17 placed 16:13 17:1,10 90:10 91:10,13,16 placement 80:25 91:15 94:8 placing 15:13 17:14 plan 31:21 35:15 36:24 42:7 55:2 60:6 66:9 68:13,16 75:18 77:17 81:14 84:22 94:17 96:7 103:1 109:8 111:22,22,25 112:22 115:19 120:21 122:19 122:20 123:4,8 123:24 124:9 124:14,20,21 124:23 125:14 125:18 126:10 133:3,10 planning 14:6 66:7 plans 43:16 46:1 75:18 104:12,12,13 108:6 121:3 123:22 127:1 plant 42:1 planter 68:7 99:16 125:7 planters 36:4 36:19 59:8,22 64:17 65:12,13 66:6 69:22 73:5 78:9,22 91:20 99:3 101:10,21 106:3,21,25 107:14 108:4 108:25 117:23 125:1 134:17 planting 67:5 86:19 plants 34:7,22 please 2:9 10:19 29:23 plots 35:15 plus 60:20 82:23 91:7 point 1:11 10:8 10:11 23:4 [permit - point] Page 28 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 31:22 42:6 45:8 47:20 50:20 51:3,17 59:9 63:19 64:4 77:15 80:17 81:10 85:23 90:12 93:14 102:25 103:24 104:25 107:13 108:1 109:1 110:9 120:2,3,12,15 122:18 131:6 points 77:16 119:21 policy 93:18 portion 27:3 36:3 position 5:25 6:7 80:10 81:21 82:3 122:14 possibilities 127:3 possibility 135:23 139:15 possibly 127:5 post 17:4 26:17 64:2 76:18 93:7 121:2 127:17 138:9 potential 63:21 63:25 potentially 135:10 poured 136:2 pre 26:17 59:19 62:10,14,14 127:17 predates 94:2,4 102:5 predating 102:4 preexisting 59:10 preliminary 4:4 9:17 122:8 premise 36:14 prepare 17:15 prepared 12:1 12:9 23:7 120:9,11 136:8 136:10,11 presented 16:21 76:12 131:6 pretty 43:5 58:11 78:2 109:19 prevent 69:17 69:18 93:24 previously 58:15 principal 42:9 95:1,2 112:23 113:1 private 15:8 27:2 94:21 probably 7:24 12:3 51:22 57:19 66:19 73:15 74:25 102:2,4 120:13 problem 44:13 56:24 118:22 128:20 problems 106:11 108:18 procedural 4:2 62:23 proceed 130:23 proceeding 45:9 proceedings 5:10 142:5 proceeds 26:3 process 15:5 20:4 26:21 32:10 60:16 63:11 102:22 123:19 project 14:24 15:1 17:6 32:13 70:16 77:12 81:17 89:13,17 95:23 103:24 112:16 pronounce 119:22 proof 90:3 properties 27:20 128:5 property 14:5 15:2,9,14 16:13 17:2 26:14,24,25 27:13,14 28:5 28:6 30:13 31:25 32:1 43:24 44:11 49:25 51:3 54:14 57:8 60:25 62:14 63:11,16,22,25 64:2 75:13 79:19 94:13 95:4,18,25 96:1 103:7,11 126:10 134:12 proposal 61:22 propose 130:25 proposed 60:15 60:18 61:5,5 61:18 83:20 101:18 111:15 protect 63:20 63:24 94:15 protected 84:8 protection 83:19 provide 17:8 54:20 103:6 126:10 provided 5:16 19:20 22:25 23:15 52:14 81:13 82:7 83:6 97:8 public 2:1,5 10:22 11:7,19 [point - public] Page 29 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 11:24 12:7,14 12:22 13:4,7 13:22 14:1 19:10,25 21:15 22:3,19,24 23:6,11 24:5,9 24:19,24 25:4 25:10,17,21 26:11 27:22 28:1,16,21 30:7,12 31:1,4 52:3,8,13,17,22 53:2,6,14 54:8 54:19 60:7,11 62:1,9 63:8 73:12,22 75:23 76:1,24 77:18 77:23 79:24 80:4,14 81:11 81:22 82:6,12 82:16,24 83:10 84:1,12,16 91:2,23 93:20 96:21,25 97:4 97:7,13,19 98:2,6,10,13,17 98:21,24 99:24 100:4,8,18,25 101:5 102:17 103:4 104:6,21 110:4 112:1,12 112:17,25 113:7,23 114:16,21,25 115:6,12,16,22 116:1 127:9,13 127:21,25 128:6 133:8 purchase 93:18 purely 46:13 purpose 65:2 65:18 66:13,22 83:24 85:20 94:13 105:6 107:7 purposes 92:10 95:14 pursuant 4:12 10:10 42:8 114:20 pursue 119:7 push 32:5 75:8 104:18 108:19 pushed 57:20 57:21 58:21 68:18 90:1 91:19 103:10 106:15 107:13 108:9 109:15 put 6:5 35:4 36:8 42:19 46:19 57:7,9 57:16,19 58:8 58:20 59:8,22 62:11,12 65:7 65:8 67:5 68:4 69:24 70:17 71:1,3 74:5 86:6 89:25 99:14 105:11 107:8 110:13 110:13,14 111:10,21 117:1,19,20 124:25,25 134:18 138:12 139:14 puts 74:8 putting 32:21 77:10 95:2 110:17 117:15 q quality 84:7 quantities 16:12 quasi 17:25 question 9:17 19:15,17 30:8 31:2 44:16 50:8 68:2 81:3 83:23 87:9 88:3 90:6 93:12 102:15 117:24 123:11 129:13,14 questions 25:16 29:4,6 38:1 42:25 87:11 112:9 quick 63:16 73:23 quite 18:22 122:20,21 quote 85:14 r r 142:1 rain 28:4 rained 32:13 raise 10:18 29:21 58:7,7,8 71:2,14 90:10 108:16 raised 60:23 68:22 91:22 raising 27:11 63:13 ralph 6:16 29:24,24 30:6 30:15,23 31:8 31:8,12 33:3 38:5 39:5,20 39:23 40:4,17 40:20 41:3,24 42:14 43:12 44:2,5,12 45:1 45:5 46:19 47:5,12,15,17 47:19,22 48:12 48:18 49:3,8 50:4,9,13 51:1 51:4,12,21 54:7 55:14,19 56:8,15,18 57:9,19,24 58:10,15 59:7 59:11,15,21 60:2 61:21 62:17 63:2 64:9,12,14,24 [public - ralph] Page 30 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 67:22 68:6,10 68:24 69:4,13 70:3,11,20 71:22 72:13,17 72:20 73:1 74:12 76:23 83:2 85:5,9,13 86:24 87:6,12 87:15,22 88:7 88:9,20 89:6 89:19 90:2,5 90:25 91:25 92:6,14,19,23 100:10 105:4 107:17 108:2 109:3 111:19 112:3 113:15 116:4 117:3,10 119:24 120:16 120:19 123:21 124:12 125:17 125:21,24 126:7,12,18,21 128:8,12,17 129:3,22 134:23 138:22 141:1 ran 15:8 rather 11:22 rational 78:24 79:1 rationale 26:14 ratke 2:20,21 3:19,20 8:15 9:2,3 12:12,16 12:20,24 13:3 13:11,21,24 21:25 22:9 29:8 38:9 48:7 48:11 130:10 131:5,9 132:9 132:17 137:2 137:13 138:4 139:25 ravine 114:15 read 15:21 70:14 105:24 116:20 reading 86:23 ready 2:7 9:12 131:17 135:8 real 58:19 81:14 really 9:13,25 10:2 33:25 54:24 73:2 87:23 89:1 91:16 93:21 99:5 100:22 108:2 127:20 129:9,9 130:2 reason 26:19 65:9 68:19 71:15 77:5 94:1 105:20 106:18 133:7 reasonable 61:10 99:9 reasonably 54:3 110:16 reasoning 93:18 131:25 reasons 31:14 received 16:7 18:20 19:4 recently 89:20 recollection 83:9 114:4 recommended 94:20 record 10:19 29:23 142:5 recording 2:2 reference 14:11 20:8 25:2 59:2 77:3 referenced 20:9 60:22 81:24 references 19:13 42:4 136:1 referencing 122:25 referred 83:5 referring 33:1 refusal 5:3 refused 37:5,6 regarding 10:8 regardless 78:5 78:9 79:11 102:23 115:11 reiterated 33:15 related 37:13 39:14 41:7,17 55:22 64:18 75:4 89:1 112:15 116:21 116:22 relates 46:14 85:23 102:21 112:20 relating 33:17 39:17 42:15 55:16 56:20 116:6,18 relation 22:1 relative 43:14 88:22 109:11 116:5 117:6 125:4 relying 87:5 remedial 27:21 remember 4:15 20:14 123:22 removal 114:14 remove 25:25 70:17 71:1 removed 70:9 71:23 72:2 removing 77:9 rendered 18:6 18:8 82:1 repeat 132:10 repetitive 112:6 replant 33:9 118:4 request 25:24 26:4 65:24 [ralph - request] Page 31 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 104:1 requested 11:23 25:23 requesting 6:2 10:7 requests 4:16 require 17:13 56:6 113:14,15 114:8 115:20 115:21 118:9 138:14 required 5:19 12:10 14:7 18:10 26:7 28:2 36:20 48:19 55:2 57:3 76:17 86:12 90:3 101:16 102:10 102:13 106:15 112:22 113:24 114:20 115:3 115:19 122:24 123:1 126:13 133:3,4,10 134:2,3,6,8 requirement 4:9 6:9 8:10,12 10:9 17:7 31:24 33:6 38:12 39:1 42:18 56:19 60:13 70:22 89:11 95:24 96:6 97:17 98:5,9 103:6,7 103:20,21 117:15 118:12 124:1 requirements 5:13 16:5,18 16:23 17:18 18:15,17,21 19:7 37:22 73:6 81:7 94:1 102:8 133:21 134:1,14 requires 14:14 14:22 15:17 79:17 102:25 109:8 125:20 135:7 requiring 15:19 88:1 113:5,10,12 114:5 123:7 researched 18:4 reserves 5:9 residential 26:22 28:7 86:17 95:5 116:2 resolve 50:3 121:12,22 respond 93:12 100:10 120:1 140:4,20 response 136:13 rest 42:23 43:9 43:23 55:8 56:3 57:7 67:24 69:13 80:8 109:19 restore 96:12 resulted 59:19 retroactive 16:16 review 9:20,25 10:3 61:19,24 62:24 75:19 109:8 120:21 reviewed 62:23 62:25 reviewing 9:22 revised 16:7 124:5 rid 32:8 33:5,8 118:7 riding 34:1 right 2:4 5:10 5:21 8:2,16 10:4,18,18 13:6,21 14:4 20:19 22:7 29:17,21,22 30:2 31:10 35:8 38:3 39:2 46:6 47:25 48:23 49:2 50:12 51:11 52:16,20 53:20 53:22 55:18 56:13,17 57:4 57:23 61:16 68:5,6,9 69:9 69:16 70:2 71:11,19 72:6 73:14 74:24 87:20,24 89:18 90:1,21 92:21 92:25 100:15 107:20 110:1 112:24 115:1 117:7,8 125:16 130:18,21 135:11,24,25 136:10,17 road 103:10 104:19 107:9 107:11 127:7 142:12 roads 83:20 84:7 rocco 28:17 rocks 59:22 125:12 roll 2:9 rolled 76:7 room 58:3 rough 74:9 roughly 15:4 16:3 52:18 61:13 74:6,10 round 129:15 129:15 routes 83:21 103:2 [request - routes] Page 32 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com rules 4:24 5:1,7 5:8,13 6:25 7:22 ruling 5:5 run 34:9 41:10 127:7 running 94:15 runoff 95:22 110:21 111:17 runs 67:3 s sake 57:16 67:24 72:5,10 78:25 104:9 sara 2:10,13,16 2:19,22 3:9,12 3:15,18,21,24 8:17,20,23 9:1 9:4,7 10:13,17 11:1,9 13:19 22:6,13 29:20 30:1,18,24 130:5,20 139:17,23 140:7,18,21 sat 18:3 136:1 save 123:18 saw 23:3 32:7 saying 16:8 22:23 38:22,22 43:7 46:24 47:2 62:19 63:22 64:23 65:3 79:8,10 80:8 86:10 89:9 93:13 97:22 102:12 108:24 116:25 118:11 123:2 124:8 128:4,22 133:21 135:4,6 135:11,12,17 135:21 136:7 says 37:3,4 39:6 42:6 43:18 46:19 55:1,1,5,5 65:14 70:4,14 71:22 75:5 85:24 86:1,16 87:25 89:3 95:21 98:11 99:6,8 102:9 104:10 107:18 108:15 112:21 112:21 113:10 113:17 114:13 115:3 116:10 116:19 schedule 130:25 scott 2:1,3,5,20 2:21 3:19,20 6:8 8:15 9:2,3 10:8,20,20,22 10:23 11:6,7 11:11,12,19,24 12:7,12,14,16 12:20,22,24 13:1,3,4,7,9,11 13:12,21,22,24 14:1 19:10,25 20:11,16,22 21:2,8,12,15,23 21:25 22:3,9 22:19,24 23:6 23:11 24:5,9 24:19,24 25:4 25:10,17,21 26:11 27:22 28:1,16,21 29:7,8 30:7,12 31:1,4,7 33:22 38:9 48:7,11 52:3,8,13,17,22 53:2,6,14 54:8 54:19 60:7,11 62:1,9 63:8 73:12,22 75:23 76:1,24 77:18 77:23 79:24 80:4,14 81:11 81:22 82:6,12 82:16,24 83:10 84:1,12,16 91:2,23 93:20 96:21,25 97:4 97:7,13,19 98:2,6,10,13,17 98:21,24 99:24 100:4,8,18,25 101:5 102:17 103:4 104:6,21 110:4 112:1,12 112:17,25 113:7,23 114:16,21,25 115:6,12,16,22 116:1 117:5 118:23 120:4 127:9,13,21,25 128:6 129:4,8 129:25 130:10 131:5,9 132:9 132:17 137:2 137:13 138:4 139:25 scott's 119:15 scotts 118:24 scraped 32:10 se 91:10 second 3:7 8:13 8:15 32:25 33:21 42:22 130:10,13 132:6,8,18 139:25 140:16 secretary 5:2 section 4:11 5:7 7:18 10:10 14:9,19 33:21 34:5 38:25 46:8 47:10,11 48:6,24 49:19 67:19 68:3,4 72:3 97:3 105:24 115:20 116:22 117:2 135:5 [rules - section] Page 33 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com sections 46:9 46:10 47:9 48:2 49:14 99:23 119:18 136:19 sector 27:2 94:21 sediment 93:24 94:15 96:8,10 see 7:19 22:9 23:16 31:10 32:9 35:6 38:3 39:3 42:24 45:1 47:21 53:11 54:1,10 54:15,21 58:16 59:21 62:17 65:23 80:19 83:19,22 93:3 97:12 98:19 102:7 109:21 109:22 119:18 123:3 128:18 133:24,24 134:9,11,15,20 135:17 136:14 136:24 seed 33:10 seeded 33:12 seeing 135:14 seem 133:12 135:9 seems 7:23 99:20 102:19 sell 31:16 semantics 66:12 128:21 sense 36:16 56:21,21,24 64:20,22,23 73:7 109:6 118:24 119:2 126:5 135:6 sent 16:2 20:20 21:1 23:9 separate 64:5 78:3,12 94:1 95:13 96:16,17 101:25 133:22 133:25 134:1,7 134:9,14,15,20 134:24 september 1:12 12:2 serve 17:25 serves 15:23 service 14:17 15:7 session 122:12 131:12,15,19 132:25 139:16 set 104:14 setting 45:18 settle 120:25 121:9 several 19:13 23:3 shake 120:8,15 shits 53:25 shovel 62:12 show 16:20 17:16,23 27:6 37:11 54:12 60:18 61:1 62:15 80:21 91:5 95:17 101:17 showed 37:8 43:4 52:18 showing 16:3 60:17 61:9 62:21 shown 67:25 121:5 shows 5:16 67:17 80:23 136:1 side 29:1 67:17 125:7 sides 44:4 109:24,25 123:5 sidewalk 99:3 99:15 110:14 sidewalks 34:23 36:19 37:14 78:22 111:4 117:23 signature 142:9 significant 28:10 silk 94:11 silly 129:9 silos 133:25 similar 86:20 simple 76:19 simply 83:24 sit 36:9 136:7 site 23:14,18,23 80:17 91:19 93:24 94:15 95:22 96:11 106:18 sitting 67:18 102:12 situation 15:11 83:7,8 122:2,3 situations 104:23 six 71:2,3,14 slab 74:7 91:12 slope 57:23 65:17 66:23,24 67:1 68:14 69:8,9 sloped 69:10 slopes 75:2 slow 28:4 small 33:3 39:23 63:14 116:3 smaller 115:9 socks 94:11 soil 41:23 72:1 soils 81:1 110:25 [sections - soils] Page 34 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com solemnly 11:2 30:2 solid 47:23 solutions 142:11 somebody 17:14 106:12 131:3 somebody's 34:10 sonya 142:3 sorry 25:14 54:17 56:14 86:22,23 87:11 100:19 120:18 sort 8:7 28:3 31:9 57:11 118:12 123:15 127:6 sounds 46:17 speak 28:17 84:19 speaking 78:24 103:20 special 4:16 7:25 20:5 120:6 137:3,5 137:8 specific 112:9 122:20 136:5 specifically 71:23 spelled 34:23 spells 86:17 spot 8:1 32:3 75:10 spread 33:11 square 14:18 15:20 16:3,9 16:14,22 22:17 24:17 33:22 37:16,17,19 42:11 43:25 44:11 45:21 49:24,25 50:21 50:22 51:18 52:1,19,25 53:13 55:4,10 56:2,3,10 67:9 73:10,15 74:16 74:17 76:14,16 76:20 80:12 81:6 85:20,25 86:2 87:4,4 88:2,5 94:3,6 94:19,22 95:15 95:20 96:2,5 96:20 99:20 106:22,25 110:21 113:6 113:13 114:10 117:2 124:4,6 124:9,10 125:3 125:4 129:12 133:19 134:4,6 staff 4:20 5:18 5:19,24 10:15 10:16 17:21 27:2 31:13 83:9 stand 28:25 standard 9:20 9:25 10:2 stands 132:16 start 10:14,15 47:11 106:20 112:9 started 15:3 17:6 26:20 32:21 33:9 69:9 70:16 74:23 starting 6:6 starts 12:2 state 10:18 29:22 82:23,25 stated 36:5 states 76:16 status 122:17 statute 6:22 statutes 4:6 6:25 21:3 82:23,25 136:2 statutory 19:20 20:18 46:8 47:11 steep 58:11 step 20:5 steps 17:19 stockpiling 80:25 stone 73:16 74:7 79:3 91:11 99:11 stones 67:20 storage 28:5 storm 26:16 116:6 126:11 street 10:24 56:22 74:20 strict 34:12 stricter 34:11 stripping 95:25 96:4 structural 40:14 structure 40:12 86:17 90:14,16 92:13 study 135:7 stuff 32:15 75:19 120:24 sub 112:20,21 114:13 115:3 115:11 subcategory 88:24 subheading 39:14 85:16 88:21 116:18 subheadings 116:21 subject 117:1 submit 46:1 60:13 138:13 138:17,23 139:2,7 submits 127:16 [solemnly - submits] Page 35 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com submitted 27:18 31:21 42:7 43:16 60:9 76:11 123:22 124:3,5 124:22 126:25 138:19 subsection 41:18 135:5,15 136:14,16 subsections 133:11 135:25 subsequent 18:7 subsequently 16:7 substrate 69:23 71:8 79:3 successfully 69:18 sudden 34:17 35:10 75:8 sufficient 60:5 suggestion 46:23 119:6 121:23 suite 142:13 summarize 31:9 122:17 summary 122:1 summation 119:5 summer 32:14 supplied 37:7 support 79:3 132:24 supposed 33:7 35:16 36:24 44:17 105:22 124:15 125:12 sure 28:10 31:16 35:20 40:19 45:21 48:20 64:11 84:25 85:11 88:7 96:8 100:11 101:15 132:7 138:9 surface 15:20 16:15 43:24 55:4 79:4 81:1 88:2 113:5,12 surfaces 110:10 surrounding 43:5 103:7 surveying 14:16 33:17 swales 127:5 swear 6:11 9:15 10:11 11:2 30:2 40:2 switch 57:1 t t 142:1,1 table 136:23 139:18,20,22 take 34:6 35:2 41:16 51:24 61:4 62:7 66:3 70:21,22 130:13 134:16 taken 5:2,6 talk 12:11 42:23 57:1 104:25 105:16 106:23 132:25 talked 100:23 122:4 talking 26:7 38:14,24 42:4 44:24 64:17,25 65:15 72:24,24 73:2 100:2 106:21 113:19 137:19 talks 38:3 57:2 84:22 105:17 105:25 tall 68:3 tear 39:19 tell 11:22 17:9 47:2 96:7 133:1 telling 117:21 tend 139:14 tends 83:18 tenure 94:19 term 18:25 19:16 28:11 33:16 39:10 terms 79:2 93:17 122:10 terrain 84:23 terrible 32:19 testimony 11:2 29:11,19 30:3 130:4,6,16,21 thank 11:10 12:23 13:24 23:24 29:3 30:25 98:16 134:21 that’s 56:20 64:16 96:23 118:20 123:19 theoretically 95:23 104:16 104:20,22 110:17 thereto 4:12 thick 11:15 thing 72:20 88:17 93:16 106:6 113:17 124:18 127:12 128:3,5 134:7 things 23:4 29:2 41:13 42:9,17,25 55:5 63:7 75:24 94:8 110:14 think 5:16,20 5:23,24 7:13 7:15,21 8:9 9:14,25 13:2 20:3 40:8 42:5 42:24 43:10 [submitted - think] Page 36 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 44:12 45:13 46:25 47:1 49:13,17 55:7 56:2 59:4 76:4 78:11 80:7 86:7 88:4 90:5 99:18 100:22 102:2 108:17 110:5,10 119:4 119:8,11,15 120:10,14 121:7,8,9,15,24 122:5,7,17,18 123:6,11 128:20 129:2,2 129:10,24 130:25 134:12 134:16 135:21 138:22 thinks 47:3 108:8 third 44:13 100:17 thomas 2:14,15 3:7,13,14 7:10 7:15 8:4,21,22 13:15 24:14 29:5 137:23 138:2 139:21 140:9,14 thought 13:5 18:8 21:17 33:7 49:21 56:6 57:18 66:23 90:18 113:22 thoughts 122:8 three 18:2 20:8 32:16 38:15 41:5 44:20 48:5 64:5 69:3 69:5 76:7 78:11 83:6 96:17 100:22 101:14,25 109:24 116:13 133:25,25 134:14 threshold 101:22 throw 45:11 92:17 till 123:3 time 5:18 6:1 7:18 15:6 18:12 26:4 80:17 90:9 111:7 114:22 122:22 123:18 132:10 135:2 times 33:15 94:22 today 4:3,18,18 18:23 102:12 137:10 139:8 together 32:22 111:22 tom 8:3 29:4 tonight 122:12 136:7 took 24:23 33:5 37:13 51:5 57:20 59:17 90:25 109:14 top 14:21 41:22 50:23 57:15 64:18 69:24 71:3 79:22,25 80:9,10 81:1 86:3,7 88:21 106:3,6 116:9 topographic 60:16 topography 65:4,5,16 66:5 67:6 74:18,19 75:11,20 85:22 105:17,19 107:2 108:25 117:4 125:5,22 126:14 total 36:22 50:10 touched 67:15 tough 28:8 toward 68:15 74:20 86:16 towards 104:19 127:7 traffic 83:20 trained 7:13,14 training 7:3 transcript 142:4 transition 59:23 68:11 treasurer 2:10 2:13,16,19,22 3:9,12,15,18,21 3:24 8:17,20 8:23 9:1,4,7 10:13,17 11:1 11:9 13:19 22:6,13 29:20 30:1,18,24 130:5,20 139:17,23 140:7,18,21 treated 91:20 91:21 tree 25:25 114:14 trench 106:4 trenched 116:25 tried 32:8 33:12 51:8 118:24 120:9 trigger 14:20 81:5 94:7,10 94:19,23 114:24 triggered 18:20 102:8 triggers 14:8 14:19 trucked 91:19 trucking 103:2 [think - trucking] Page 37 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com trucks 32:16 true 142:4 truth 11:3,4,4 30:4,4,4 try 52:10 83:23 118:4 122:9 trying 6:22 21:20 38:2 51:16 52:12 62:6 66:11 75:13,14 76:5 118:5,25 turn 103:21 two 14:21 19:20 33:15 42:24,25 54:13 58:13 60:24 65:10 66:17 69:7,7 88:14 93:17 95:7 96:15 100:16 102:16 107:4 121:10 122:2 129:15 135:25 136:18 137:2 137:10 typically 4:15 u unanimous 130:14,15 under 30:13 43:17 46:18,20 49:19 53:9 57:6 62:3 71:25 72:22 73:10,19 76:14 76:15 77:17 78:6,8,10,15 79:16,23 80:1 90:11,16,18,20 90:24 92:12,22 93:15 96:3 114:9 117:9 123:14 125:3 133:3 134:14 underneath 35:19,24 36:7 58:8,23 71:16 72:6,11 74:13 78:6 79:4,11 90:14 91:7,11 92:14 99:2 101:9,10,11 105:11 106:2 116:22 124:25 understand 34:2 50:7,17 51:16 52:9 53:4 58:9 90:6 107:24 124:2 133:20 134:10 135:4 understanding 16:11 46:10 87:20 90:9 understood 98:23 undertake 95:16 undertaken 15:1 77:13 81:17 unseen 118:12 use 28:8 79:25 92:1 108:10 109:7 used 57:3 92:10 111:11 128:24 using 61:12 82:4 usually 61:14 v variances 4:16 various 18:11 18:16 72:1 vegetation 34:15 verbally 138:20 veritext 142:11 versus 54:16 111:13 view 121:7 village 1:11 2:3 2:10,13,16,19 2:22 3:9,12,15 3:18,21,24 4:1 6:8,12,18,24 7:2,5,17 8:17 8:20,23 9:1,4,7 9:11,18,24 10:8,13,17,20 11:1,6,9 13:1,9 13:12,19 14:8 14:9 15:2,8 18:5,11,15,20 19:4,8,12 20:2 20:11,16,22 21:2,8,12,23 22:6,13 25:12 25:15,19 26:5 29:1,15,18,20 30:1,18,20,24 41:2 42:6 45:24 46:22 47:7 48:13 65:24 78:20 83:1,4,12,16 84:3,18,25 85:7 90:7,17 97:9,10 100:12 100:20 101:2,7 107:25 109:1 112:5,8,14,19 113:3,9,18 114:12,18,23 115:2,3,10,14 115:18 119:3 122:16 123:2,7 123:11 124:8 126:6,9,16,20 129:4,8,25 130:5,12,17,20 130:22 132:7 132:22 133:4,8 134:21 135:1 136:21 137:4,9 137:15,18,21 139:6,12,17,23 140:2,5,7,11,18 [trucks - village] Page 38 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 140:21 village's 6:6 9:21 virgin 95:1 96:1 vote 136:8 votes 5:19 w wait 34:18 35:11,21 120:5 129:23,23,24 130:7 waive 6:2,9,19 8:11 9:8 103:19 waived 6:1 103:21 waiving 6:16 7:23 8:1,10 walkway 35:7 want 4:22 6:5 10:15 11:12,17 19:14 23:4 31:16 38:9 41:9,16 42:2 43:3 50:24 52:10 56:25 66:14 71:15 74:5 83:5,20 90:8 105:21,22 106:19 108:15 108:16,20 109:6 118:15 119:5,7 120:23 123:10,16 127:19 128:16 130:23 131:24 136:23 137:5 138:16,20 139:2 wanted 15:4 54:24 65:8 93:11 125:25 127:24 wants 93:4,8 117:19 133:9 138:13 watched 118:2 118:3 water 15:7 28:4 32:5 34:8 66:15,18 67:3 67:11 68:18 69:18,19 75:6 75:8 84:19 105:21 107:20 108:19 109:1 116:6 121:19 125:10 way 8:7 37:19 58:3 74:21 78:25 84:9 89:5 95:12 101:15 104:14 108:6 109:24 121:9 126:2 127:2 128:13 131:10 138:12 we've 11:15 26:22 28:2 49:16 66:17 104:23 121:25 129:24 130:3 week 120:5 138:10,18 139:2,8 weeks 137:10 went 13:5 21:3 33:24 41:25 63:11 118:18 west 26:1 32:2 58:12 59:18 60:25 67:17 69:8 109:19,20 wet 51:8 whichever 24:2 wide 68:3 73:14 107:4 wider 71:19,21 willing 6:9 windows 58:2 winter 33:13 wisconsin 1:11 10:21,25 withdraw 121:12 witnesses 9:15 wonder 66:4 wondering 28:3 100:17 word 121:19 129:7 words 6:5 work 25:16,19 25:22 27:21 53:22 108:15 worked 97:10 works 2:1,5 10:22 11:7,19 11:24 12:7,14 12:22 13:4,7 13:22 14:1 19:10,25 21:15 22:3,19,24 23:6,11 24:5,9 24:19,24 25:4 25:10,17,21 26:11 27:22 28:1,16,21 30:7,12 31:1,4 52:3,8,13,17,22 53:2,6,14 54:8 54:19 60:7,11 62:1,9 63:8 73:12,22 75:23 76:1,24 77:18 77:23 79:24 80:4,14 81:11 81:22 82:6,12 82:16,24 83:10 84:1,12,16 91:2,23 93:20 96:21,25 97:4 97:7,13,19 98:2,6,10,13,17 98:21,24 99:24 100:4,8,18,25 101:5 102:17 103:4 104:6,21 110:4 112:1,12 [village - works] Page 39 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com 112:17,25 113:7,23 114:16,21,25 115:6,12,16,22 116:1 127:9,13 127:21,25 128:6 133:8 worth 73:25 wrecked 41:25 write 119:11 120:6 132:23 136:22 writing 136:24 138:17,19 writings 122:6 written 77:4 94:2,5,19 118:23 wrong 19:24 90:22 120:2,3 135:9 136:6,9 wrote 89:10 y yard 32:3,6,23 33:9,9 34:10 35:8 44:4 50:22 55:9 56:3 59:15 65:16 66:20 67:7 68:15,18 68:22 69:5,8 69:14,14 70:1 73:4 75:9,10 75:21 80:9 85:22 86:8,9 86:15 89:21 106:6 107:20 126:4 127:7 yardage 49:24 49:25 74:16 85:19 yards 14:24 15:4,13 16:13 17:1,9 33:4 45:23 57:3,7,9 57:12 63:5,17 63:19 64:16 65:1,6,7,12,14 65:14,15 72:11 73:3,11,19,19 74:13 75:7,9 78:1 84:5 85:19 86:1,5,7 86:11 94:9 95:21 96:4 97:15 98:22 101:24 102:16 103:17 105:15 105:17,25 106:7,12,23,24 125:3 yeah 2:2,6 7:4 7:12 8:6 9:18 12:23 13:6,15 13:18 21:2 22:10,15 38:16 40:24 48:3 51:4 53:10 59:15 60:10 71:21 75:25 80:5 82:7 88:19 89:6 92:24 119:4,13 131:7 132:20 137:5,11 138:15,25 140:11 year 26:16 62:8 75:18 76:17 125:15,20 126:11 127:1 years 4:15 15:3 26:20 102:3,4 114:4 [works - years] Page 40 Brown & Jones Reporting 414-224-9533 A Veritext Company www.veritext.com VILLAGE OF FOX POINT BOARD OF APPEALS MEETING MINUTES AND DETERMINATION WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 22, 2025 Page 1 of 3 A meeting of the Fox Point Board of Appeals was held in Schwemer Hall, 7200 N. Santa Monica Blvd., on Wednesday, January 22, 2025 at 5:00 p.m. Chair Nancy Filsinger called the meeting to order at 5:00 p.m. The Village Attorney took roll call. Those present included: Nancy Filsinger, Chair Thomas Dunst, Board Member Scott Ratke, Board Member Adam Bazelon, Board Member Julianna Javor, Alternate Board Member Staff members also present were Attorney Eric Larson, Building Inspector Michael Rakow, and Assistant Village Manager Kevin Ausman (via Zoom). Approval of Minutes September 25, 2024 Meeting and the Findings of Fact, Decision and Order Roll call vote: Nancy Filsinger, Chair Aye Thomas Dunst, Board Member Aye Scott Ratke, Board Member Aye Adam Bazelon, Board Member Aye Julianna Javor, Alternate Board Member Aye Motion by Board Member Bazelon and seconded by Board Member Dunst to table the item until the next meeting. Motion carried 5-0. Approval of Minutes October 9, 2024 Special Meeting and the Findings of Fact, Decision and Order. Roll call vote: Nancy Filsinger, Chair Aye Thomas Dunst, Board Member Aye Scott Ratke, Board Member Aye Adam Bazelon, Board Member Aye Julianna Javor, Alternate Board Member Aye Motion by Board Member Bazelon and seconded by Board Member to approve the minutes of October 9, 2024 subject to correction of votes which include Member Adam Bazelon. Motion carried 5-0. VILLAGE OF FOX POINT BOARD OF APPEALS MEETING MINUTES AND DETERMINATION WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 22, 2025 Page 2 of 3 CASE 2025-01: 1130 E Dean Road. The applicant is requesting a special exception to install 6ft tall fencing within the street yard setback. The special exception request is made pursuant to 745-7 B.(3)(h)[2] and 745-7 B.(3)(j) of the Fox Point Code. Motion by Bazelon, second by Filsinger to allow the fence installation contractor to present testimony on behalf of the property owner. Under discussion, motion to amend by Dunst, second by Filsinger to ask the property owner via telephone to authorize the fence installation contractor to present testimony on their behalf. Amendment failed 2-2; Bazelon and Dunst dissenting, and Filsinger abstains. A vote was held on the main motion by Bazelon, second by Filsinger to allow the fence installation contractor to present testimony on behalf of the property owner. Motion carried 5-0. Village of Fox Point Building Inspector Michael Rakow Building Inspector Michael Rakow stated his name and was sworn in to provide testimony by the Village Attorney. Rakow corrected the record to reflect that the fence is 4ft tall. Rakow described the proposed fence located in the street yard. Applicant Steve Fouhal represented by Jeffery Jarozewski, Jeff the Fence Guy LLC. Applicant Representative was sworn in to provide testimony by the Village Attorney. Jarozewski stated under oath that he is authorized to present testimony on behalf of the property owner. Jarozewski described the fence to be located along the front property line, set back 6”, and is intended for both a symbolic religious enclosure, and to keep out deer. Closing of Testimony: Case 2025-01 Without objection and by unanimous consent, Chair Nancy Filsinger closed testimony for Case 2025-01 at 5:52 PM. The Board discussed standards for a special exception. Deer are not a danger and financial hardship is not a standard for granting an exception. As stated by the fence representative, the religious enclosure request could instead be met by a wire and not necessarily by a fence. Motion by Board Member Bazelon, seconded by Board Member Dunst, to deny the request as the standards for special exception have not been met. VILLAGE OF FOX POINT BOARD OF APPEALS MEETING MINUTES AND DETERMINATION WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 22, 2025 Page 3 of 3 Roll call vote: Nancy Filsinger, Chair Aye Thomas Dunst, Board Member Aye Scott Ratke, Board Member Aye Adam Bazelon, Board Member Aye Julianna Javor, Alternate Board Member Aye Motion is carried 5-0. The request is denied. Adjourn Motion by Board member Bazelon, second by Board member Dunst to adjourn. The motion carried 5-0. Meeting adjourned at 5:55 PM. Respectfully Submitted, Kevin Ausman Assistant Village Manager